Atheists will burn at the 2nd Coming
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Miscella — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 01:39 PM)
The Bible does speak of punishment (eg Matthew 25:46), but again, if there's no difference between 'punishment' and 'consequence', then it's just semantics. In any case, God may have presented the options, but he isn't making the choice.
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graham-167 — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 07:08 PM)
Suppose I come to you and say "I have paid a hitman to kill you unless you give me a hundred dollars a week from now on."
You refuse to submit. The hitman kills you the following week.
In my defence, I say "Well, I only presented the options. I clearly gave Miscella a way to avoid being killed. I didn't make the choice, Miscella did. And thus I bear no responsibility for the outcome. You cannot possibly accuse me of a crime."
Do you think my argument holds water, legally or morally?
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
Miscella — 9 years ago(December 30, 2016 08:04 PM)
Yes, I saw that video, too.
No, of course your argument holds no water, legally or morally. I get what you're saying, but it's a bad analogy because the idea is that God isn't asking anything from us. Remember, I call myself a Christian, not a Muslim. If anything, Jesus paid the debt in your scenario for me, and the hitman killed Him instead.
The options you presented is an ultimatum: Do this or die sooner rather than later. The options God presented are little different. He gave you eternal love with the option to refuse it. The only choice you don't have is to not make a choice, so there is something to be said for that. After all, I don't remember asking to play the game
Sorry, I'm really not trying to sound like an evangelical, but if you want to send me money anyway, you'll have to PayPal it because I don't have a collection plate. lol -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 03:55 AM)
If you build a fire to keep me warm and I put my hand in it knowing it will burn me, would you say you were punishing me for choosing to burn myself?
If I'm the one who created fire and your body, both with the properties such that one will burn the other, then yes, absolutely. And most especially if I created both knowing in advance what you would do and what would happen.
According the Bible anyway, God does indeed take responsibility for the existence of the machine, but not for one's decision to say "yellow"
Note, though, that he allegedly created the kid as well, along with it's propensity to behave in such a way as to trigger the machine.
It comes down to this, in the end : if god created it all then god is responsible for what it all does. There's no aspect of reality where he gets to shrug it off as not his fault. It's ALL his fault.
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
Miscella — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 01:43 PM)
It comes down to this, in the end : if god created it all then god is responsible for what it all does.
This presumes that God also controls the actions of what he created, which makes us all puppets. Are you a puppet, Graham? -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 04:25 PM)
This presumes that God also controls the actions of what he created, which makes us all puppets.
We're presuming an omniscient god for the purpose of the discussion, yes? In which case your suggestion is correct.
Are you a puppet, Graham?
If there is an omniscient god, then yes I am. And so are you and everyone else.
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 06:22 PM)
but I would bet it's because you need it to be.
You lose your bet.
So I guess the question is, whether you think that people's future actions fall into the category of "things that can't be known by god."
Do you?
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
Miscella — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 06:39 PM)
I smell a trap here, but if those actions are the result of a freely made decision, then yes, I do. However, even if I didn't, that still doesn't negate the fact that omniscience doesn't include the ability to know what can't be known just as omnipotence doesn't include the ability to do what can't be done.
What's next? You gonna ask me about that rock? -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 07:02 PM)
if those actions are the result of a freely made decision, then yes, I do.
And why do you believe so?
However, even if I didn't, that still doesn't negate the fact that omniscience doesn't include the ability to know what can't be known
(ETA : Actually most definitions don't mention your caveat. But let's go with it.)
Do you presume that there actually is anything that can't be known? And again, if so then why do you presume so?
Oh, and another question - do you think mankind could one day equal god's knowledge? After all, if omniscience is merely knowing "all that is knowable", then surely it must be possible for anybody to attain all of that knowledge?
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
Miscella — 9 years ago(December 30, 2016 07:33 PM)
And why do you believe so?
Because it's the only thing that makes sense. Anything else is a paradox. If (and that's a big if) I'm merely choosing to believe anything, it's that God is not a sadistic jerkwad, but I'd say that's where faith comes into play.
Do you presume that there actually is anything that can't be known? And again, if so then why do you presume so?
I can't know if you'll catch me when I fall, and that's not a presumption. I can only know if you
did
.
do you think mankind could one day equal god's knowledge? After all, if omniscience is merely knowing "all that is knowable", then surely it must be possible for anybody to attain all of that knowledge?
I don't think God is a big riddle. I think for the most part, we tend to needlessly complicate things. But no, I do not think we will ever know everything there is to know, at least not in our mortal lifetimes. We will always be in a perpetual state of ignorance from the future's point of view. Socrates said, "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing," but I would tweak that a little and say the only true wisdom is in knowing
what
you don't know. -
washclothrepairman — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 04:38 PM)
An omniscient god and human free will are incompatible. It is literally impossible for both of them to exist.
If god knew, at the moment it created the universe, that eventually my life would lead to me being an atheist, then I never had a choice in the matter. I could never not be an atheist. I was simply following the script that god wrote. The universe is basically a movie that god wrote, directed and produced, and it's a movie with absolutely no ad-libbing or improvisation on the actor's part. Further, someone can't choose to believe in things. It's a natural response to data and evidence. I can't simply choose to start believing in leprechauns. I can
say
"I believe in leprechauns," but that's not belief. That's just lying.
So to punish people for something they didn't do is utterly immoral and reprehensible. You can't force someone to do something and then punish them for it.
Yes, yes, I know. "But he's god! He can do what he wants."
This is incorrect. Might does not make right. The universe exists to everyone, not to god, and I belong to nobody but myself.
Never trust a black man named "Chip." -
Miscella — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 04:43 PM)
"Nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God." (CS Lewis)
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/28243-his-omnipotence-means-power-to-do-all-that-is-intrinsically -
washclothrepairman — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 04:52 PM)
Nothing I wrote is nonsense. If you can't wrap your head around the fact that godly omniscience and human free will are 100% incompatible then perhaps you should re-enroll to elementary school because this is pretty basic logic.
If my actions, personality, life and beliefs were determined before my birth, I have no free will. And neither do you.
Luckily, there is no god, omniscient or otherwise, so you and I (probably) do have free will.
Never trust a black man named "Chip." -
Miscella — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 05:05 PM)
Those are some pretty big ifs you have there
I used to argue the same thing, more or less; that if God knows everything, then He also knows where I'm ultimately going to end up. So if hell is my final destination, and he's always known that, even before I was born, then why would He let me be born in the first place? God must be a sadistic jerkwad, right?
Like I told Graham above, the so-called logic you're standing behind here presumes that omniscience includes knowing what can't be known. Specifically, you are presuming that God knows literally everything, even the unknowable, including what choices we may or not make now and in the future. Similarly, omnipotence does not include the ability to do the impossible. You may as well say that God can be both or neither existent and nonexistent. After all, he is 'omnipotent', no?
Nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God. Just like Jack said. -
washclothrepairman — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 09:17 PM)
The definition of omniscience is to know
everything
. To future is, obviously, part of "everything." Also, christians are very fond of saying that god is outside of time, so it would be able to observe, and therefor know, the future, at least on their interpretation.
Never trust a black man named "Chip." -
Miscella — 9 years ago(December 29, 2016 09:47 PM)
The definition of omniscience is to know
everything
.
Except, of course, where Adam was hiding or what the hell is going on in Sodom and Gomorrah. lol. Seriously, though, if paradoxes do not apply to an omniscient being, then such a being would certainly know how to predestine our fates without precluding our free will. (Did you not read the full quote I linked above?)
"intrinsic impossibilities are not things" -