Inept Film-maker?
-
Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Lucio Fulci
mdsmith101 — 21 years ago(July 27, 2004 07:57 AM)
I've seen 6-ish films by this fella and only 2 were good (because they were so bad), the rest were terrible and full of never explained plot-holes and things that made no sense.
All the bad ones were presented in bad pan and scan with awful dubbing and cuts by the censors.
It's hard to tell if Fulci was either a bad film maker or that his films were badly presented.
If anyone could explain about his "greatness", feel free.
'Men know us by a single name: DEATH! DEATH!' -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(July 30, 2004 02:18 PM)
The greatness of Maestro Lucio Fulci is the style, the thoughts behind his films, the depthness of his films and the fact that he's a brilliant filmmaker. His films were much more that just gore, gore, gore, but the images he put on the screen meant something more that just a simple image. He always tried to express something with his films, and filmmaking was his life. It meant everything to him.
You can't blame Fulci for the dubbing. And you can't judge his films when you've seen "the bad ones" in only a cut condition. Thats just plain silly.
Name some plotholes in his films?
Was Fulci a bad filmmaker? Hell no! -
mdsmith101 — 21 years ago(July 30, 2004 03:10 PM)
Plot holes.
Well, I couldn't follow anything in House by the Cemetery, City of the Living Dead, most of The Beyond and a good chunk of Zombie Flesh Eaters (what was going on with Flesh Eaters 2?) I might have seen others, but I just can't remember them.
I'm not slagging off the director at all, but due to lame transfers and worse pan & scan the message or themes that Fulci might have been going for were lost to me.
Look at his legion of fans, if he was really bad they wouldn't be there would they? Shall we say that the presentation is bad, but he knew how to make a film?
'If I wanted to listen to an a**hole - I'D FART!' -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(August 01, 2004 09:18 AM)
I'm still asking; what plot holes?! And try to watch his films more that once before judging. I first understood House by the Cemetery and The Beyond after watich them about five times. And if you don't understand City..og Zombie Flesh Eaters, you REALLY need watch them more than one time in it's uncut widescreen condition.
Why watch a film when it's cut? And even worse; why judge a film when it's cut?! And yet almost as worse; why wtach them in bad releases, when there is a lot of great widescreenreleases out there? -
mdsmith101 — 21 years ago(August 01, 2004 10:25 AM)
You watched these things 5 times to understand them? If it was David Lynch I would understand, or Dario Argento maybe. Maybe I saw these films in such a bad condition is because here in the UK IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO SEE THEM!
OK now: Plot Holes. Sue for this, but when nothing makes any sense, I can't see the plot for the holes. The only reason I saw The Beyond was because many people said "you have to see this". The film seemed to be full of incoherent things, the blind woman, what was that about and her demise coughSUSPIRIAcough. Why did the doctor keep a gun in a hospital desk, what was up with the melting faces all the time, the end of the film is supposed to be ambiguous. To me it made no sense.
Now, since you are so clearly a fan of Mr Fulci, please explain House By the Cemetary. Make me see what that was about.
If I don't like a film once I'm not going back to get it (unless it's Demons 2, it makes me laugh).
I still like Soavi, but that's me -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(August 05, 2004 10:30 AM)
Perhaps there's a reason why it didn't make sense? Perhaps beacuse have have to see them more to understand them? And by the way, there are plenty og places on the wed where you can buy his films in good condition.
First of all, the scene in The Beyond that you're making a reference to has nothing to do at all with Suspiria. Fulci hadn't even seen Suspiria. There is no way he would copy a scene from a film he hadn't even seen.
The Blind woman followed Sweick (the painter) down to "the beyond", and somehow managed to escape to warn Lisa about the hotel.
So what if the doctor had a gun in his desk? No way that's a plot hole. It's just the way it is. And what do you mean with the melting faces? When a guy get's acid pored all over his face, it will melt.
The end was the easiest part of the film to understand - Lisa and John entered "the beyond" - a place with no time, no wind, no life, no nothing. That scene is the best one i've ever seen in the history of the cinema. Pure magic.
The House by the Cemetery puts it's focus on children, and how only children can understand and belive the fantasique.
Come back when you've seen his films uncut, in it's original formula. Then we can discuss it. -
mdsmith101 — 21 years ago(August 05, 2004 12:10 PM)
why are we going over plot points anyway? I could mention Mario Bava's "Mask of Satan" where almost every camera shot in perfectly framed and that the whole film is carefully shot and photographed, due to the skill of Bava. How about Lamberto Bava on "Demons", brilliantly filmed with an interesting narrative and tight editing. Argento's "Suspiria", like "Mask of Satan" gorgeously shot, beautifully scored with great editing.
Use the above as a guide. Now I could mention Fulci's building of atmosphere, which is generally good. I wouldn't say they were well written, or edited. By starting this thread I was hoping that someone could convey the film-making skill that Fulci used; instead we're yakking about plot points.
And that Doctor in The Beyond with the gundoesn't make sense, but it's Italian. Sure, it lacks narrative sense, but it's only a horror movie.
You still haven't broken House by the Cemetary - let's leave the zombie/doctor aspect and the woman (Ania Pieroni?) who acts stranger than the usherette in Demons. Explain what was going on with the old woman and the young girl and why the young boy was so attracted to them.
Now, NerdofHorror, all I want is a summation maybe by you as to Fulci's technical film-making prowess. Don't just say he liked making movies, it doesn't cut mustard - get technical! In other words, movie making is about more than pointing a camera!
Oops! Forgot to mention Soavi's "Stage Fright", another well shot, edited and executed Italian film.
'If I wanted to listen to an a**hole - I'D FART!' -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(August 06, 2004 06:12 AM)
You're talking about plot holes, but you almost can't coft up any examples, but i'll answer your request on House by the Cemetery;
Like i said, the film puts it's focus upon how only children can understand and belive the fantastique. As you see in the film, Bob confronts his parents with supernatural experiences he's had, but they don't belive him. Antoher example to support this was in the scene where Bob talks to the girls even though he was far, far away from her. He could still hear her. Everything is possible in a childs world. They're thinking he's just a child. The old woman was Dr. Freudsteins wife, and the boy was so attracted to the little girl because she was simply his first friend at the new place. In the end, the children enters "the beyond". The little girl opens the gate for Bob to enter, and "saves" him from the normality of life. They continiue to live on in another world where adults holds no power.
I amazed that you didn't get the ending of The Beyond. You're the second one i've ever heard of that hasn't gotten it.
So the the technical part; Fulci's films is shot in cinemascope which gives a very atmospheric blend to the films. Supplied with the amazingly cinematography by maestro Sergio Salvati, Fulci pushed the limit of creepy moodsetting-gut-munching atmosphere to it's very limits. In fact, Fulci was quite a handyman himself when it came to the technique. He used a special technique on the cinemascope-camera where he cut the frame, which made the picture look much, much better, and also proved the facts that italians are brilliant on that level. I also loved the way he used seipa in the beginning of the beyond. Originally the scene was to be shot in black/white, but Salvati mixed this seipa together, and it worked perfectly (Fulci later used it for a scene in Conquest, but that was with green color). Very stylish and unique. He also uses a special kind of filmmaking-nervewrecking style where he zooms up on the eyes of the actors. Also worth mentioning is the camerawork in Conquest with the always special use og foggy creativity that describes the mystery and absurdity of the film.
The Beyond was shot in 2-perf Technoscope format with only half a frame to create a widescreen image. This technique was very popular in italy becuase yu could have twice the running lenght with the same ammount of film. 2-perf looks grainy, and thats whats describes the atmospheric style of the maestros work. Fulci made atmosphere like no other could. Fulci cared about the technique. On se, he worked very hard to make the film look as good as humanly possible with all the few resources he could use. He didn't have the same oppertunities as Argento, Soavi or Bava, but he made the best of the little he had. He was a trye artisan.
Umberto Lenzi would support me on this one. He's said that Fulci was an extremly hardworking man who deserved so much better. Co238ming from umberto, a very talented and underrated director with a good taste og technique, says a lot. -
mdsmith101 — 21 years ago(August 06, 2004 06:48 AM)
That's pretty much what I wanted to know in the first place. One question to you: Do you think that the early 80's video nasties craze might have spoilt his name here in the UK?
As for The Beyond, opening the film in sepia is a nice touch. I heard that Francis Coppola mixed some of that into Godfather to acheieve a certain look. At the end of "Beyond" the last two characters run into the beyond (Hell?) their eyes turn white and they're stuck there.
For me, personally it like the end of Jaws (the book), kind of like, oh. As compared to the screaming, wailing, smashing end of Suspiria. I was reading this morning about the end of City of the Living Dead. Y'know when the kid runs towards the survivors as they climb out of the ground. Sad to hear that the original end was damaged and had to be re-shot - so the kid was a zombie? Ambiguous, but so what, Italians are known for leaving a certain amount to the imagination.
Do you know of any books about Fulci that I could get on the cheap? I used to have Broken Mirrors/Broken Minds which is exhaustively about Dario Argento and his films (did you know that Suspiria is loosely based on a true story?).
'I can't have a hairy chest, B, that's f***ed!' -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(August 06, 2004 09:25 AM)
Yes, the video nasty-rubbish ruined a big part of his name in the UK, because politically correct-people were unable to se the substance in his films. In their eyes, it was explotive violence and nothing more.
Yes, in the end of The Beyond, the protaginists enter hell - the afterlife. They become souls that lives in a place without nothing. Life is an illusion, and behind the horizon is the true fact of life.
The ending in City of the Living Deas is actually based upon a little joke by maestro Vicenzo Tomassi. One day when he and Fulci sat in the editing-room editing the film, Vicenzo discovered on a piece of film that the two protagonists in the end of the film were having an argument in that particular scene, and also, like you said, the film of the scene where the kid comes running towards the protaginists was damaged, s he decided to cut and paste them together so it looked like the ending was bad, when in fact it was all based upon a little joke by a certain Vincenzo.
The best book on Fub68lci today is Stephen Thrower's "Beyond Terror - The Films of Lucio Fulci", which in my opinion may be the best book ever written in history. Thrower shares som pretty deep thoughts upon the maestro's films, and managed to weld the many ideas behind his films. -
mdsmith101 — 21 years ago(August 06, 2004 11:31 AM)
Thank you, NerdofHorror. You have sucessfully answered my question and I will soon be scouring the web for Mr Throwers book. I was reading your reviews here at IMDb, what on earth was that Japanese/Chinese vampire film? It had a bizarre title, your comments made me laugh, believe me the film sounds inept in the extreme.
If you could maybe recommend some other horror titles to me it would be appreciated.
If you like you could check out some of my reviews here please fe2000el free.
'Maybe he lives next door to YOU!' -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(August 06, 2004 12:11 PM)
Yes, it's called A Bite of Love. It was so, so bad.
It's hard to recommend horrortitles when it, in fact, excists so many of them. It's probably the biggest genre of them all, and definently the widest. If you can be a bit more specific, i may help you. -
mdsmith101 — 21 years ago(August 06, 2004 02:52 PM)
Clear your mind and think of say, 10 titles that spring to mind. As one horror movie fan to another I would recommend:
GINGER SNAPS
HOUSE OF 1000 CORPSES
SUSPIRIA
NIGHT OF THE DEMON (1958)
BLACK CHRISTMAS
SILVER BULLET
THE PROPHECY (1995-ish)
RE-ANIMATOR
EVIL DEAD 2: DEAD BY DAWN
RABID
My girlfriend is endlessly throwing this kind of question at me, now I'm asking people all over the place it as well, only with her it's more like 10 films with Tom Cruise. Groan!
Did you see Uwe Boll's "House of the Dead"? I saw it a few months back and reviewed it. I felt that it borrowed heavily from House by the Cemetary and Zombie Flesh Eaters. Only badly.
"Groovy." -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(August 07, 2004 07:24 AM)
I haven't seen House of the Dead yet. I don't really watch a lot of new horrormainstream. I like the old stuff. Well, here's 10 great horrorfilms (and i won't count any Fulci-films in it, because you probably know what i think of his films):
- Night of the Demon (1980)
- Cannibal Man
- Nekromantik
- Nekromantik 2
- Schramm
- Der Todesking
- Santa Sangre
- Nightmare City
- The Gore-Gore Girls
- Combat Shock (not really a horrorfilm, but still such a fine piece of art)
-
divisionbell-2 — 14 years ago(May 09, 2011 01:03 PM)
How about City of the Living Deadwhat the heck was up with the ending? The kid runs towards the two survivorsthe woman starts screamingand it just ENDS. Now THAT is a huge plot hole
To the very toes he is terrified, because the ground gives way under him, And the dream begins -
fightceramics — 21 years ago(January 04, 2005 06:21 AM)
I'm not sure if you guys are gonna check this, but I have a quote from Mr. Fulci that perfectly explains the intention of the incoherent nature of his plots:
" . . . my idea was to make an absolute film . . . there's no logic to it, just a succession of images. The Sea of Darkness (from the final scene in The Beyond), for instance, is an absolute world, an immobile world where every horizon is similar . . . Both films [here Fulci is comparing the Beyond with Inferno] have no structure. We tried in Italy to make films based on pure themes, without a plot, and The Beyond, like Inferno, refuses conventions and traditional structures . . . People who blame The Beyond for its lack of story have no understood that it's a film of images, which must be received without reflection . . ."
The same can be said for House by the Cemetery and most other Fulci films from this period. I hope this helps someone.
Oh, and Nerdofhorror, you're angry and obsessed to the Nth. Please, please get a grip. -
NerdofHorror — 21 years ago(January 07, 2005 02:42 AM)
What does Nth meada0n?
I'm not angry. I just think it's amazing that people think of him as inept. Mostly, the people who say this, have no clue about italian cinema and what the director's try to express. A lot of them don't even care, and that says something. -
fightceramics — 21 years ago(January 07, 2005 04:55 PM)
The Nth degree. It means like "the highest amount."
It just seemed like you snapped at everyone who said something negative about Lucio Fulci. I can understand why most people don't like Fulci.
I think his films are an acquired taste. The first Fulci film I saw was Sombie Flesh Eaters, which is the most mainstream and accessible of his work. I still enjoy his zombie films the most, but I love his other horror and giallo films too(I'm still working towards the other genres). The more I watched them and read about them, the more I understood them and liked them.
The people who think that Fulci is inept or crude aren't ignorant, they just haven't had the chance to completely absorb everything about his films and ideas.