Speaking on the general topic; I think "motive" is the wrong angle to look at the situation, whether it be from a murder
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — George Reeves
clh-1 — 15 years ago(December 20, 2010 09:45 AM)
Speaking on the general topic; I think "motive" is the wrong angle to look at the situation, whether it be from a murder or suicide perspective. At the time of his death, George Reeves may have been looking forward to his upcoming wedding, and (according to Noel Neil) was even a little excited to be working on Superman again (partly I suspect from the pay raise, and the rumored gig of also directing several of the planned episodes). However, the night of his death, he was drinking and taking pain medications, to say the least he wouldn't have been in his right mind.
However, I think that the physical evidence is a better indicator of homicide or suicide. His hands were not tested for powder residue at all, so there is no way of knowing if he had held the gun that night or not. But if I recall correctly there were no powder burns on his head. Meaning that there are two possible possitions that the gun could have been held; right against his head, "muzzle-to-flesh" or at least eight inches away. The wound itself was described as "irregularly shaped", which to me means that the muzzle of the gun could not have been flat against his skull, which in turn would have lead to a "teardrop" shape of powder burns around the wound. Thus a conclusion that the gun was held relatively far away from his head for a suicide is not illogical.
Also of note are the bruises found on the corpse. The movie Hollywoodland implies they are the result of George Reeves doing Judo falls in their recreation of this footage
However the real footage was shot well before Reeves' death, for a "pilot" for an ad campaign he was hoping to take part in
http://betterlivingtv.blogspot.com/2006/06/george-reeves-your-candid-r eporter.html
Draw your own conclusions.
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God Bless! -
stargazer_1682 — 15 years ago(January 17, 2011 11:47 PM)
Does anyone have a distinct, reliable source for George being on pain meds the night of his death? I've read several write-ups, including the fictionalized "Hollywood Kryptonite," but don't recall any of them mentioning this. It may have slipped my mind, but honestly, reading the last few posts, which mention that, I don't recall that part in anything I've read.
One flaw with the theory that George was taking the gun out to brandish on his way downstairs, is that George was found nude, after he had been shot. You'd have to be pretty far gone not to notice, or care, that you were no longer wearing clothes, when about to go downstairs and join a group of friends (though in this case, "friends" was a loose terms, since he wasn't well acquainted with about half the people gathered in the living room.)
But even if one argues that he was that drunk (which would require him to be that drunk, if not more so, however long it was prior, when he first went down and complained about the noise) this begs the question if any reports of his state that evening, supports the idea that he was remotely that drunk? My interpretation of Leonore and the others' statements, painted a picture of a man within reasonable control of his faculties, at least enough not to go downstairs naked; and who would take out their gun to go downstairs, before getting dressed, or putting your robe on?
More than that, by most personal accounts of friends who knew George when he was drunk, suggest that George was actually quite high functioning when he was intoxicated. That doesn't preclude the possibility of a accident, as a result of even slightly diminished capacity, but to 5b4me at least, it makes the theory of sloppy, drunken fumbling of the gun, cause for his death, unlikely. I've never read anything to suggest he was that wasted prior to his death, from just alcohol or a combination of pain meds and alcohol.
But I think the fact that he was nude when he was shot is most telling. This is a-typical of suicides; suicide is strongly motivated by ego, and many accounts say that George had a healthy enough one, that he was too vain to shoot himself while nude, he wouldn't have wanted to be found that way.
Another matter interesting to note, is that Leonore and the other guests' initial statements were that Leonore expressed belief that George was going upstairs to kill himself - a statement Leonore later said was not true. But even if perhaps she did say it, and later forgot or blocked it from memory, if she truly thought that, why didn't anyone go and make sure George wasn't doing anything brash? And if she didn't say that, why did she initially tell the police she did?
Sam: And what did you find out?
Al: That girls that wear glasses, have lots and lots of energy -
billsanantonio — 13 years ago(September 22, 2012 10:20 AM)
Actually I can't believe, his girlfriend did it. In case she killed him, she probably wouldn't have run downstairs and beg everyone to tell the police, she hadn't been upstairs, especially when she was drunk. I don't imagine a drunk murderer running directly to some people around the corner and talking himself into a alibi.
I think, she was upset, because she wasn't guilty, but upstairs and no witness around to proof her innocence, so she ran down for help, to clear herself.
It might be, it was done by Mannixes henchmen, but I can't really imagine them get to Reeves, kill him and disappear into thin air. Besides, the girl would have mentioned them to the others, to clear herself.
The only plausible alternative to suicide for me is, it was a bigger conspiracy, with the girl, some killers and maybe some of the people downstairs involved. It couldn't have worked otherweise, in my opinion.
But why such an expenditure, just to kill a man? I mean, this was real life. No spy movie. I don't believe it.
It's sad, but I think it's most probable, it was suicide.
The girl might have confessed the murder later to a priest, but maybe she did it, because she felt guilty for having driven him into suicide or something like that.
Furthermore, I don't think Mannix initiated murders. He covered up much dirt (like the killing of Ted Healy, which is supposed to have been committed by Wallace Beery among others), but the risk of initiating a killing by himself?? Why?
On the other hand:
Even if it was for sure, George Reeves himself pulled the trigger, I wouldn't call it 'suicide', because he was under heavy influence of alcohol. As far as I know, this is evident.
With that much alcohol in your blood, you don't make decisions. You just follow impulses. It's even possible, he was just playing around with the weapon. John-Erik Hexum, for example, died in a similar way.
In my opinion, a suicide is only a suicide, if there is a clear decision behind it, which was made without the influence of alcohol or drugs, or if it'da0s clearly visible, the person planned death very well. Anything else is nothing more than an accident. George Reeves definitely shouldn't be considered as a man, who didn't want to live anymore. It's not fair to make believe, a so called 'suicide' in his case would be proof enough.
There are quite a lot of actors and other movie people, which are credited as having committed suicide, but with a lot of alcohol or drugs involved, I think.
Who is the judge, to claim, these people killed themselves on purpose?? -
Hollywoodshack — 11 years ago(January 14, 2015 04:51 PM)
The book, Hollywood Cryptonite, tells all the facts that make it possible Reeves could have been murdered. Oil on the gun, no fingerprints, incomplete atopsies..car heard screeching away after he was shot..it's all there.
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princebuster82 — 11 years ago(February 26, 2015 12:06 AM)
"Hollywood Kryptonite" is a sensationalist piece of garbage devoid of any real facts. It was poorly researched and any "evidence" presented to show that Reeves death was anything but suicide is hearsay forty years removed from the actual events.
On powder burns: Reeves body was never checked for powder burns, so any claims that "there was no powder burns on his body" is merely speculation. The absence of any VISUAL signs of powder burns is consistent with the notion that Reeves held the gun away from his head rather than directly at it. This doesn't mean that someone else pulled the trigger, it just means that the gun was at least three inches away from his head- not an uncommon feat. It furthers my personal theory that he accidentally shot himself while drunkenly fumbling for the pistol.
There are no "incomplete" autopsies. There were two complete autopsies done that both arrived at the same conclusion: suicide.
Reeves slept in the nude and had no qualms about walking around with no clothes on. He was very proud of his body and would often stop and look at himself in the mirror and adjust his hair or flex a bicep. Add to this vanity a dose of inhibition reducing alcoholism and there's no reason to not believe he would have walked down to the party in his living room stark naked to kick everyone out.
There's no mystery here. I'd like to BELIEVE that someone murdered him, but there's just no evidence to support that theory. He was depressed, drunk, high on pills, and irritated by the party that was keeping him awake. He was known to brandish his gun when drunk and agitated and I believe that he got the gun out of the nightstand with the intention of waving it around to scare everyone into leaving and he accidentally pulled the hair-pin trigger. Such a waste. -
princebuster82 — 11 years ago(February 26, 2015 09:10 PM)
Why would he need to oil up the gun the night he died? Or are you suggesting that oil on a gun will evaporate within minutes? He could have oiled the gun weeks, months earlier.
You're obviously going to believe whatever you want to believe, reality be damned.
