Conflict and Consequences - or lack thereof
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Ponyo
mark-1306 — 15 years ago(September 27, 2010 07:16 AM)
Immediately upon finishing Ponyo, I thought it was a relatively good, cute film. However, the more I thought about the story, the less I liked it.
It boils down to two words: conflict and consequences.
There is no conflict beyond the first third of the movie. Ponyo escapes, her father tracks her and retrieves her, and then Ponyo escapes once more after releasing the elixir. Sure, there's a little bit of danger there when Sasuke's mom is frantically driving home while the sea swells around her. But a little bit of peril is not character-driven conflict.
As far as consequences, there are none in the film. Ponyo is an unruly child who disobeys her father and proceeds to wreck the balance of nature and pull a Hurricane Katrina on a small unnamed town. Is she ever punished? No. In fact, she gets exactly what she wants: to be human and live with Sasuke.
There is also no tension in the film. Everyone seems so madly calm. Sasuke's mother finds her son's fish has turned into a little girl. Not exactly a normal turn of events. Does she act suspicious, become protective of her own son, ask any questions, or engage in any other perfectly normal reaction? No. She makes the girl ramen.
Beyond her, there is that scene where the Ponyo and Sasuke come across the couple in the boat with the baby. I originally thought that couple was some sort of test from Ponyo's parents. But, no, it was just a couple on a boat. They're just out, calmly drifting about after this storm and the tsunami has wiped out their way of life and killed lord knows how many of their friends and family. The same with the other villagers on the larger boats. It's like they're out for a day cruise. -
bransrubar — 15 years ago(September 27, 2010 10:05 AM)
First of all you must keep in mind this is a movie aimed at young children so the plot will be less complicated than other movies. However there is more conflict and consequence than you mentioned. Ponyo had thrown the Earth out of balance when she became human so the fate of the world was tied up in her personal fate. If Soske had failed his test, the world would most likely have been destroyed (I think there might have still been a way out but it wasn't good). It certainly would have been destroyed if he'd ducked the test any longer.
As for Lisa (Soske's mother) calmly accepting Ponyo's transformation I don't think it's so hard to believe. She was a very extraordinary woman who was willing to believe in miracles. She even mentioned that life sometimes was amazing.
The calm villagers I think are to be commended. They were handling the emergency (remember the rescue boat ferrying people to higher ground) while realizing that panicking will solve nothing. The family in the boat were probably on their way to safty but as things looked calm at the moment they were taking things a little slowly.
I do realize that this movie can be hard to understand but I hope my comments helped a little. -
mark-1306 — 15 years ago(September 29, 2010 08:25 PM)
That's actually what I find to be the problem: it's not hard to understand at all. I'm aware it's a children's movie. Nonetheless, it's never good to "talk down" to kids.
What was the test? That Sasuke would love Ponyo whether she was a human or fish? Was there ever any real doubt that he would? From the very first time he laid eyes on her in fish form, he fawned over her. When she was taken from him, he was devastated. When she returned as a human, he doted on her, cared for her, dragged her along when she was falling asleep. His love was unconditional from the beginning. There was simply no doubt of his success.
Compare that to the Shrek series, where there was some actual tension built around whether the characters could be loved whether or not they were human.
As far as the calm villagers, having been through a few hurricanes myself in Miami - such as Andrew - I can testify that having your life torn out from under you can bring out the worst in people. I've seen it firsthand. Sure, some folks will just take it in stride, but others will resort to despair or rage.
Of course, it's a fantasy movie, but the best fantastical adventures are grounded in realistic human emotions and interactions. I found those calm villager scenes far less plausible than the grandest scenes of magic and transformation within the film. -
lchen95 — 15 years ago(January 30, 2011 10:06 PM)
I have to agree, as well. As visually stunning as this movie was, it had a complete lack of substance, ignoring all consequences as stated in the OP. Firstly, in a flood of such biblical proportions, there would be bodies floating everywhere, with few if any survivors. Secondly, there are all those prehistoric fish and wildlife rummaging around, yet nothing is eating anything else (guess nature in this movie is supposed to be all kind and loving). Yeah, I knowit's supposed to be a movie for kids. However, I just happened to watch another childrens movie in the same nightBridge to Terabithiawhich was pretty solid and non-compromising in how arbitrary and unfair life can be sometimes.
And what was the deal with Ponyo's dad? During the scenes in his underwater home, he seemed to be intent on annihilating all human civilization with his potions to restore an Ocean Earth, but then at the end he was wishing everyone a nice life Huh? One of the hallmarks of Miyazaki's films (and a fair amount of anime in general) is that many of the characters are shades of gray rather than pure good/evil characters, but this just seemed like lazy character development.
Having seen every Ghibli film, this would have to rank near the bottom.
(NOTE: I watched the Japanese version with English subs) -
suz-mal — 15 years ago(February 08, 2011 07:15 AM)
You're comparing a work of escapist art to subpar cliched Hollywood crap like Bridge To Terabithia? Not everybody likes things done the American way. Miyazaki's films are pure escapism. Children don't want conflict and consequence; they want fun magic and bright colours, and this film had both. And whoever said it was unrealistic because there were no bodies floating around and the prehistoric fish weren't eating people is an utter moron. The film presented a fantastic world different from our own, skipping the negative elements of life like death. And just because there are no bodies or man-eating fish doesn't mean anyone is 'talking down' to the kids, as the OP put it. We followed two young kids on an exciting feel-good adventure, and for the length of the movie were able to avoid the fact that 'life can be unfair at times'.
Also, I should note that in all likelihood, most of the kids who saw Bridge To Terabithia were only kept interested by the special effects and fantasy scenes. If all the plot elements were gone, kids would probably like it no less. -
supafly707 — 13 years ago(June 15, 2012 01:12 AM)
To call a Miyazaki film just a "children's film" is a gross misjudgment and oversimplification. Sure, his films tend toward family friendliness, but they are never strictly children's films. And no, there is nothing hard to understand about this film. It's a lesser work of a great filmmaker that is very much style over substance. The film tries to make us care about Ponyo throwing the Earth out of balance and the fate of everything resting on her was horribly thrown in to give the story an endgame that it didn't really need. It was a cute story about a little fish who wanted to be a human, why resort to an underwritten pseudo-apocalypse deus ex machina?
Soske's mother being a "very extraordinary woman" who is "willing " to believe in miracles and mentions that life was sometimes amazing is not the same as being someone who sees a fish turn into a human being and says, "Makes sense." -
Hash_Slinging_Slasherr — 15 years ago(February 12, 2011 04:15 AM)
OP is awesome XD I lol'd
Good points though, after a while, I just gave myself the excuse that the disregard of paranormal disasters was Japanese tradition. But seriously, I was disappointed in the movie. -
dejan_kober — 15 years ago(February 20, 2011 05:33 AM)
I have just finished watching this animated film. And I also didn't like it. I love all other Miyazaki's films, and this one I give lowest rating of all of them.
Reason for that is exactly what was mentioned in first post of this discussion. And I understand that this is film made for kids, but good kids movie is made in way so that grown up people like them as same as kids. And I as grown up person, didn't like it.
I'll try to explain why, using "uncanny valley" as example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKTAJBQSm10 - this example is related to video games, but it implies to animated films as well).
Same thing that puts some artificial characters in uncanny valley when we talk about physical appearance, applies to those characters when we talk about emotions and reactions.
If character in some animated movie is rendered as human, and it looks like human and is presented as "normal" human, as are in this film Sosuke's mother and other people from that town, then we expect from them to act as we know that people will act in similar situations. So when entire town is flooded, and people act like they are on some sort of vacation or parade, then that's not normal human behavior and it makes those characters unbelievable and we can't relate to them, even this is pure fantasy film where watter turns to fishes, fishes to humans and humans can live and breathe underwater. And when we watch those fantasy elements, then we are OK with them, because we don't have real life experience or comparison to compare it to.
But it looks totally unrealistic when we see grown up person (Sosuke's mother) who acts like it's totally normal and almost every day thing, when ocean is poring out, rising all over to top of hill where her house is, and from waves comes something that looks like human child, but with chicken legs and hands, and jumps right on her son, and all she does is just ask Sosuke if he knows her, instead of beating that thing with stick like every mother will do trying to protect her child from thing that came from sea, morphed from childlike creature in to "normal" child and jumps right on to her own child.
And after that, in middle of Biblical flood, when sea is rising, what she does? She leaves her child alone in house with thing that came from sea just some 30min ago (1h tops) and drives to check on people in elder home witch is in middle of town full of other people who can take care of them.
I don't wan't to sound cruel, but how many of you will abandon your only child in middle of that kind of flood just to go check on couple old people?
That kind of reaction from her is unrealistic, or at best irresponsible and makes her look like bad mother; especially if you add to that her driving style when her child is in her car (driving like a mad woman, sliding all over the road, almost getting in to frontal collision with truck, and driving over flooded dry dock when huge wave is coming instead of taking safer mountain road, as suggested by guys at dry dock).
And reaction of town people is also in bottom of uncanny valley; their whole town is flooded, their lives ruined and they act like is no big deal; like they are on peaceful cruise or vacation.
In mine opinion, better turn of events, that will ad more realism to whole story and make it more dramatic will be if all of them ware more devastated by flood and Ponyo realizes that she has done whole that misery and pain to people out of her recklessness and childish stupidity, and she has to make decision eider to fix all that by returning to sea, or risk more damage by stying with Sosuke. And Sosuke's test will then be struggle between love for Ponyo and fear for life of his father lost on sea, his town, house and mother. And in the end, they decide to split for better good, and as reward for responsible choice and their sacrifice for good of entire world, Ponyo's parents turn her in to human and return her to Sosuke. And we will have nice happy ending with nice moral story that will be equally understandable to kids and grown up people.
But this cartoon has no moral advice, there is no real test of their love for each other, there is no hard choices, no drama, and in the end, no real connection to any of characters.
And I will mention once again; I realize that this is film for kids, but kids movies has to entertain kids and teach them something in same time. This one doesn't teach them anything valuable. -
tedne — 15 years ago(February 24, 2011 02:16 PM)
The plot you outlined above is an adult plot. A five-year would not write a plot like that. Ponyo is not just made for little kids, it was made BY a little kid. The conflicts and consequences are the ones a 5-year-old would understand and enjoy and write. Both kids have seriously cool houses and seriously cool parents, not to mention Ponyo's 200 valkyrie sisters. A tsunami? Way cool! No school!
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HollowScar — 14 years ago(June 07, 2011 04:45 AM)
Yeah, for a Miyazaki work, this one seemed more like a Disney kinda movie. It just went in the wrong direction.
- Fish changing to be a human is ridiculous. Its never too good if you give up your identity or origins for a relationship. Its like the Little Mermaid syndrome in which the relationship was based on neediness and emotional blackmail of sorts.
- Spitting water at your father's face just to go with a boy? Seriously? Holy, this might just be too problematic for children who still dream fantasies. Often time, we don't appreciate what we have and the people that brought us here and cared for us, so a movie like this can be too egotistical.
- There are no consequences, and the whole aspect of believe in yourself is grossly exaggerated. The tsunamis, that intense stalking by someone as young as her, the breaking of rules, putting others in danger, etc. etc. without even the slightest hint of regret is another factor.
All things aside, it was a good movie for what it was, but no where near as spiritual or meaningful as Miyazaki's previous work. This one did have good animation though.
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ferraritr — 14 years ago(June 12, 2011 08:43 PM)
It's not just "the Little Mermaid syndrome", the movie is based off and inspired by the Little Mermaid.
I also felt the movie came up short, but the 'no consequences or regret' is really how a child of that age would probably think, especially one with as little exposure as Ponyo. As for losing her identityI felt it was the opposite, she was separating herself from the tons of others just like her and creating her own life, even if it wasn't the best choice. All in all Miyazaki was still able to capture the essence of childhood, but he went a little too young this time.
Stupidity isn't a virusbut it sure is spreading like one. -
random_guy85 — 14 years ago(August 02, 2011 12:03 AM)
yep and have to agree. musical score is orgasmic beyond belief, and there are great Miyazaki moments like first 4 minutes, Ponyo running on the water made of fish and Ponyo's mom being the ocean goddess was great to watch her moving around
but the story really goes nowhere and considering how adorable the characters were and how much I actually cared for them all, I would have liked for them to have a better story.
Heck is where you go to if you don't believe in Gosh -
minhal92 — 14 years ago(December 24, 2011 06:42 AM)
Mark, I find myself agreeing with your post a lot. Yes I do recognize that this is a children's movie and whatnot but the points made by you are still totally valid. This movie was missing something, I still enjoyed it quite a bit, its still well made but the plot was kind of lacking. I've watched a bunch of Miyazaki movies in the last couple of days (Spirited, Howls Moving Castle and this) and i felt this sadly had the weakest plot
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Madhaxman — 14 years ago(January 02, 2012 09:04 PM)
As far as consequences, there are none in the film. Ponyo is an unruly child who disobeys her father and proceeds to wreck the balance of nature and pull a Hurricane Katrina on a small unnamed town. Is she ever punished? No. In fact, she gets exactly what she wants: to be human and live with Sasuke.
Her Father is a over bearing and xenophobic. You must forgive the film if it believes going against him is the right thing to do.
And its not liek she intended to cause bring chaos to the world.
And what was the deal with Ponyo's dad? During the scenes in his underwater home, he seemed to be intent on annihilating all human civilization with his potions to restore an Ocean Earth, but then at the end he was wishing everyone a nice life Huh? One of the hallmarks of Miyazaki's films (and a fair amount of anime in general) is that many of the characters are shades of gray rather than pure good/evil characters, but this just seemed like lazy character development.
Because he saw how a relationship between a member of the sea world (his own daughter) and the land world was able to restore the balance that he hold so precious.- Fish changing to be a human is ridiculous. Its never too good if you give up your identity or origins for a relationship. Its like the Little Mermaid syndrome in which the relationship was based on neediness and emotional blackmail of sorts.
- Spitting water at your father's face just to go with a boy? Seriously? Holy, this might just be too problematic for children who still dream fantasies. Often time, we don't appreciate what we have and the people that brought us here and cared for us, so a movie like this can be too egotistical.
See my first point. Ponyo was beginning to grow her own identity and individuality, and her fathers response was to try and supress it. The eventual rejection of the identity put upon you by your parents in favor for the identity you choose for yourself is a natural part of growing up.
And she didn't just fall for the boy, she fell for the entire lifestyle that the land life had offered her.