Why are people calling the sex scene rape?
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Manderlay
jghitchins — 20 years ago(February 14, 2006 02:05 AM)
I'm really confused by this. I have heard and read the scene referred to as rape. As a woman I literally am confused by this. Lousy sex, sure. The man was totally unconcerned with Grace and I'll even go so far as to admit he saw her as nothing other than a hole. But rape? Where I come from rape involves one partner being compelled to participate in an act they don't want to.
The scene I saw in no way forced or compelled Grace, in fact she was attracted and quite interested in screwing him. Has it gotten to the point in this society where a selfish, self-centered partner by definition is now a rapist? When did lousy, horrible sex become rape? If that's the definition we go by now I would think large amounts of men and women are routinely "raped".
Anyway, would appreciate anyone who saw this scene as rape to let me know why they consider it rape.
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palefire-1 — 20 years ago(February 15, 2006 05:57 PM)
I agree with you, jghitchins. It is not a rape. If anything, Grace's motives for having sex with Timothy were as selfish and dubious as his. There are extremists, of course, who regard any male/female sex as rape. The film's director is notoriously sexist, as is evident in all his films, but does that make this an instance of rape? No.
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gauli — 20 years ago(February 18, 2006 01:06 PM)
"If that's the definition we go by now I would think large amounts of men and women are routinely "raped". "
Wasn't there an article about this? It was about couples, where a surprising amount of housewives felt like their sex lives have become so tasteless and abusive to the point that it feels like they're being rapedlol I'll see if I can find the article..
Oh, and I haven't seen the movie or the sex scene. -
deanowest — 20 years ago(February 20, 2006 09:43 AM)
I saw the whole scene as a culmination of her fascination with the "exotic" black man. thru the whole movie she was compelled by her superior, dare i say arrogant?, attitude. she thought she was setting an historical wrong right. Then she gets bogged down in her stereotypical lust of the the "exotic" black man. the sex was not romantic or ideal as jghitchins stated. It was just one of a whole bunch of ironic reversals Trier uses to expose the nature of humans. that we are corruptable, that we never change, that racism is part of who we are even though we deny it.
i think the movie is great. just another film in a long line of great Trier films that make you think,if yr. willing. -
palefire-1 — 20 years ago(February 23, 2006 08:16 PM)
Oh yeah, Grace here is very much objectifying Timothy as a piece of sexy exotica, just as she was objectified as a woman in Dogville. The sex scene is quite odd, and funny: her head striking the headboard and this far-away, almost analytically introspective look in her eyes plus John Hurt's ironic, not-at-all-sexually-provocative voiceover.
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makingspecial — 19 years ago(June 09, 2006 03:26 AM)
I have a hard time understanding that the scene could be seen a s rape. Looking at Triers more commercial films since "Breaking" there is espcially in "Dogville" several variations over "O". To understand the directors relationships to women watch some of his earlier shorts - though hard to get a hold of.
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Kincajou — 19 years ago(May 21, 2006 05:32 PM)
I would consider it rape because a true gentleman shouldn't engage in such an act in such a manner at such a time. Consider if Timothy had asked Grace to have sex with him at that time. She proabbly would have said no. Later on, when they were alone together, maybe she would have said yes. But, Timothy didn't ask; he just took. Again, a true gentleman asks or knows when to, "Take me now."
When I am not seen, it may mean, I am unknown to those who do not see. -
SpencerBerry — 19 years ago(May 24, 2006 02:35 AM)
If you aren't a gentleman, then you are a rapist.
Definition Rape: the crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him without their consent and against their will, esp. by the threat or use of violence against them.
Definition Gentleman: a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man.
There's a huge gap of people in the middle of your Rapist/Gentleman spectrum. -
Lotuspetal7 — 19 years ago(June 08, 2006 11:52 PM)
I think the sequence before the sex scene leaves it unclear as to whether the sex is rape or not. That she wanted it is true. That she was unable to get away once it became horrifically painful is also true. She didn't seem to have done much to resist beforehand, but I believe he was sort of dragging her. I'd call it borderline.
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a_world_unknown — 19 years ago(August 09, 2006 02:16 AM)
I think the way the scene ends makes it somewhat ambigious. That it fades out with her screaming, presumably without him stopping, means to me that in a way she may have been raped, even if the initial sexual contact was consensual. Of course, just because she was in pain doesn't mean that she was resisting, but the scene cuts away before it's clear if she tries to have the sex stop.
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rasajike — 19 years ago(January 14, 2007 04:32 PM)
I read her screaming in two inclusive emotions:
- Cries of release. A degree of sexual release that she had not yet known. You know the whole Mandingo thing (See also Ellen's monologue in "Heading South")
- A reaction to the lack of control "Grace" suffers under in both Dogville and Manderlay.
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energy8432 — 19 years ago(August 10, 2006 08:24 PM)
Rape does not have to be by "force" You can give consent to have the sex after being coerced. It may not be by actually holding somebody down and forcing them to have sex or threatening them with violence. Generally date rape is not committed by "force" but by the person coercing the other into agreeing to have sex by making threats (not strictly of violence) or making them unable to give consent.
That being said, I don't think that the scene was rape whatsoever. I think it goes along with the theme of the movie of beware of what you wish for and that your ideas can be clouded by your ideas of "right" and "wrong" Grace had this fine idea, fantasy of what it would be like to be ravaged by Timothy but then she realizes that he thinks of her as an object just like the slave owners thoguht of their slaves. -
paranormalentity — 19 years ago(August 11, 2006 03:19 AM)
This whole discussion reminds me of the 'Fiction' half of Todd Solondz's "Storytelling." To explain in brief, Selma Blair plays as a college creative writing student who, after ditching her cerebral-palsy boyfriend, has a one-night stand with her black-power creative writing professor. After the encounter, she recites a story she wrote for her class victimizing herself as a poor helpless creature who was violated by her strong and overbearing black professor. The scene ends with the professor and one of her peers in the class (who has also shacked up with their teacher), who explain the incident as a "Benetton rainbow complex" stemmed by a mentality revolving around "mandingo cliche." Lars von Trier seems to create a similar situation, albeit unspoken, in "Manderlay."
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C.S.Wood — 19 years ago(January 31, 2007 12:26 PM)
Kincajou wrote:
Timothy didn't ask; he just took. Again, a true gentleman asks or knows when to, "Take me now."
This makes no sense. A guy has to know when to "take me now" but if he's wrong and that's not the case he's a rapist?
BTW, when talking with a group of women, one of them told me "If a woman has sex with a guy, then
afterwards
(we're talking hours or days) decides she shouldn't have had sex with him,
that's
rape."
Also, if "a guy promises to pull out and doesn't, that's rape."
I think from now on I'm taking the Dave Chappelle route to sex: a signed contract detailing what's going to take place during the sex. I swear to God, if I was a lawyer I'd work up one of those and sell them. I'd make a bloody fortune!
As far as the scene in the film being rape or not, I couldn't help but notice during the masturbation scene, the announcer remarks "whether it was pleasurable or painfil is hard to tell" but I apply the same logic to this I've applied to other films: when a woman is typically raped in a film, she fights tooth and nail for it to stop. That didn't happen. No biting, no clawing, no wild thrashing. If if she had shed tears, though that's not a concrete sign of displeasure, might have been a subtle hint, but no. The always popular "NO!" and "STOP!" would've been pretty good hints, too.
And if my Human Sexuality class tought me anything, her "scream" was caused by her reaching climax. As most human responses start of with "excitement", then "plateau" (her forzen, "mouth wide" look would hint at this), followed by "climax" (her scream), then "resolution" (her little smile).
It wasn't rape and there's nothing that indicates such.
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