Clearing something up - D.I.D, Simon and the ghost story.
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Session 9
vojkan087 — 13 years ago(January 21, 2013 02:15 AM)
Shocked and appalled by the supernatural theories here I had to write this.
This movie is not a supernatural ghost story revolving around Simon the evil ghost, and his victims. It shocks me to even have to deny that.
The main theme in the movie is DID - former MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder).
Dissociative identity disorder (DID), is mental illness that is characterized by the presence of at least two clear personality states. It occurs several times more in women than in men, and is always associated with severe abuse that led to it.
Mary was, as stated by the movie, DID patient (although in that time it would be called MPD not DID). Her other personalities are Billy and Simon. (What in the world is Billy in that ghost theory ???)
As our friend Simon himself says: ''he(Peter) scared Mary, docMary fell down,doc. She fell on her doll, it cut her up,doc.It cut her up real bad..she NEEDED SOMEONE TO HELP HER..SO..IINTRODUCED MYSELF..and I told her to cut up Peter.''
Textbook DID. Has nothing to do with ghosts. Especially since the only source of Simon,are old tapes. If it was ghost story, he would actually appear in the movie.
That is the ''weak and the wounded'' explanation. Those who were weak, and wounded by abuse, have their ''Simons'' or whatever they will call them born inside their mind, to protect them. To do what they originaly couldn't.
The Mary Hobbes case is here to presents us with the disorder (DID) Gordon had or obviously still suffers from, without spoiling the twist at the end.Not because Mary herself or her identities is important to the plot. Mary is long gone.
There is reason why they explained the whole asylum closing, patients being set free etc
There is a reason why Gordon has those deja vu moments in asylum.
And finally, in the wheelchair scene, Gordon snapped - his agressive personality said hello to him - ONCE AGAIN. That personality is not Simon, who is Mary's, but his own,unnamed one. Intentionally emotionless, eery artficial voice, similar to that of Simon - to show how similar and artificial are those alters. They don't exist, but do to their original owners same kind of damage.
Gordon does not remember his agressive actions - also something DID patients do. The ''wake up'' part.
If the story was about ghosts, why bother so much with DID, when there are far more ''apropriate'' mental illnesses to connect with supernatural. Schizophrenia, some psychotic episodes etcThey could give a solid basis for supernatural story. But such story is nowhere implied in this movie, nor does the diagnosis given in the movie support such intepretation, since DID symptoms define every single part of the plot.
SO the movie shows severe mental illness (DID disorder) and it's dangers. It also shows the danger of such patient walking free among us, of interrupted treatment etc. -
Chris-592-480476 — 13 years ago(January 26, 2013 07:07 PM)
great oration, however, this is a movie, not real life: everything should tie in. Are you suggestingthat it was just a massive coincidence? ? maybe if they had hinted that Gordon might be one of those mental patients let loose when the sanitorium was closed, I might buy it.but it wasn't hintedipsofacto, there was a malevolent possessionSorry 80
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gvkeitz — 13 years ago(January 27, 2013 07:42 AM)
Excellent analysis, especially for Mary's having DID/MPD. That is precisely how I interpreted the movie. I never made the connection that Gordon was a former patient that was set loose. While it makes a whole lot of sense, I don't necessarily buy it. I mean, I think the voice he hears are his personal demons, or split personality, but I don't think he was a former patient.
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vojkan087 — 13 years ago(January 30, 2013 02:25 PM)
Gordon being a patient is just my assumption because the strong deja vu feeling is there in Gordon from first scene.
Hello Gordon voice might also be the past memory of his encounter with Mary Hobbes while she was in the Simon personalityHe might just be remembering when Mary-Simon said ''Hello Gordon'' to him years ago..
But in any wayThis is not meant to be supernatural movie, for reasons above. And should not be looked as such. Since only those who never saw mental hospital believe ghosts are scariest things out there.
Mental ilness is one of the worst horrors in our entire reality. -
ChanceX74 — 11 years ago(June 23, 2014 09:54 AM)
The problem is this: if the core foundation of the narrative is DID, Gordon exhibits no other identifiable personalities than his own. Absent any portrayals of other personalities, what he exhibits is closer to psychogenic amnesia brought on by PTSD.
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Zando777 — 13 years ago(January 31, 2013 03:52 AM)
This is an interesting take, but it's certainly not the only possible one. And I don't believe it's the correct one.
Yes, Mary had MPD/DID. But Simon could still have easily been a demon that possessed Mary, and that also possessed Gordon. This is the implication left at the end of the film, by Simon's voice.
Note that Mary's other personalities still sound somewhat like her. Simon sounds NOTHING like her. He's clearly another being altogether.
Gordon was already troubled. Maybe that's why Simon was able to possess him. But Simon appears to be an outside, malevolent force. -
vojkan087 — 13 years ago(February 05, 2013 02:02 AM)
Dissociative identity disorder (DID), former multiple personality disorder (MPD)appears in people who experienced severe mental trauma = are mentaly wounded.
When DID occurs, usually the agressive personality emerges on top of the present weak one. Typically to protect the weaker original personality from the mental or physical abuse that triggers DID. As ''Simon'' explained in the movie - When he explains how he introduced himself when Mary fell and cut herself.
Nothing supernatural about it.
If director wanted supernatural element he would have skipped DID, and went with many other mental illnesses more connected with supernatural like different psychosis, schizophrenia.. -
Zando777 — 13 years ago(February 11, 2013 06:02 PM)
In other words, you're saying that DID can behave the same way Simon the Demon behaved. That does not, however, establish that Simon the Demon does not exist here.
If the director did not want a supernatural element, he would not have brought up Simon, or would've given him a voice more like Mary's (possibly cutting out Billy from the script to avoid confusion).
And how exactly are psychosis, schizophrenia, etc. connected to the supernatural? -
vojkan087 — 13 years ago(February 12, 2013 02:05 PM)
If the voice of Mary's agressive alter ego was more female, the effect would severely loose it's edge.
If the director wanted supernatural element he would not have the problem with Billy being cut out.
Schizophrenic and psychotic patients have halucinations that are very supernatural in nature -
Zando777 — 13 years ago(February 13, 2013 12:14 AM)
If the voice of Mary's agressive alter ego was more female, the effect would severely loose it's edge. because we'd know then it's just one of her other personalities, not something supernatural/external, which it instead appears to be.
How exactly are hallucinations supernatural? As opposed to imagined? Aren't they simply the product of misfiring synapes, a biophysical dynamic?
Not sure what you mean about Billy and the director's intent.
Look, VJ, will you simply admit that one can just as easily take this as a demonic possession story as a D.I.D. story? I'm willing to admit that it's possibly meant by the director to be left open to interpretation. But given all the hints towards the occult her gravesite, the repeated numbers on her gravestone that resemble inverted sixes, the manifestly different voice, what the voice says, etc. the director AT LEAST is giving the viewer the option of deciding for themselves whether it's an external demon or a simple case of D.I.D.
Which, I think, is what the movie's really about the ambiguity and horror of mental illness, and how it parallels traditional tales of demonic possession. To the point where it's essentially impossible to distinguish between the two. -
vojkan087 — 13 years ago(February 17, 2013 03:26 AM)
Not because we would know something only those who want to see actually see, but because we aren't in the asylum and our shock effect needs to elevate in some way.
War, despite all the action movies, was never captured as horrific as it is, though body count and actuall agression are often far greater in movies than in real life. The image of 4 killed men haunts me for two decades, nothing, even in the most realistic of all movie battle scenes comes close in shock and traumatic effect. Actual battle footage is traumatic as well. Why? Because we know it's realDID patients, although their alter egos can be very close to Simon, both in sound and actions,especially in actionsare horrific even if they sound more human.
That is why movie, compared to actual visit to mental asylum, needs to step up, to bring us to that shock, and dread, all of us have when countering severe mental disorder in real life. Especially those agressive and sinister, as DID potentially is.
Hallucinations that occur in schizophrenia for example can lead patient to believe he is possessed by some supernatural force, or that is being chased or led by supernatural force.
That is much better ground foor making actual ghost story, since the natural/supernatural dividing line is blurred to begin with.
Anyone is free to make whatever he wants from this movie, interpret it in any way he feels like. That is why English made up the word 'misinterpretation'.
But it is then more due to the lack of psychiatric knowledge or experience, than to the clever mind of viewer.
''the ambiguity and horror of mental illness, and how it parallels traditional tales of demonic possession. To the point where it's essentially impossible to distinguish between the two''
Can agree.
PS: DID is never 'the simple case' -
Zando777 — 13 years ago(February 20, 2013 03:11 PM)
"Anyone is free to make whatever he wants from this movie, interpret it in any way he feels like. That is why English made up the word 'misinterpretation'.
But it is then more due to the lack of psychiatric knowledge or experience, than to the clever mind of viewer."
The thing is, VK, you're the one who appears to be misinterpreting the film, by viewing it solely through the lens of your alleged pschiatric knowledge/experience, and ignoring the clear clues and points made by the film/director.
That is your right, but it means that you end up missing the true meaning of the film.
No real knowledge of D.I.D. (or MPD, etc.) is needed to conclude that a movie (like Sybil, 3 Faces of Eve, etc.) is about split personalities. Because the public already has a thorough understanding of this fairly simple and straightforward disorder.
The reason that people recognize this as a supernatural story, rather than a story primarily about mental illness, is because the director clearly intends it as a supernatural story. With mental illness / MPD as an underlying red herring.
Do you also believe "The Shining" is about MPD? "The Exorcist"? After all, those also involve people whose personalities inexplicably change. -
Jerbsinator — 13 years ago(February 23, 2013 12:39 AM)
Agree completely. There was absolutely no supernatural element to this movie, they made it seem that way at the beginning, but after watching completely there is ZERO indication that anything supernatural was going on. That mental hospital was just that, a mental hospital. That's it, there were no spirits or demons possessing people. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to watch the movie again because they are delusional.
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Duragizer — 13 years ago(April 02, 2013 11:03 PM)
Agree completely. There was absolutely no supernatural element to this movie, they made it seem that way at the beginning, but after watching completely there is ZERO indication that anything supernatural was going on. That mental hospital was just that, a mental hospital. That's it, there were no spirits or demons possessing people. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to watch the movie again because they are delusional.
I love the opinions of conceited blowhards. If only they were as reciprocal
Life is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. -
ru1041 — 12 years ago(July 05, 2013 11:19 AM)
I agree. There was nothing supernatural about this. There were times when strange noises, etc. occurred but they were always explained to be real, birds, etc. You would expect a movie set in a mental hospital to be about vengeful spirits and ghost. I think that is what makes this movie so good, it is not about a haunted place, it is about a haunted mind.
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teddhath553 — 13 years ago(March 05, 2013 10:46 PM)
spoilers, I'm sure
In the film's commentary, Brad Anderson said that Simon was able to take control of Gordon because he was "weak and wounded," which implies that although Mary Hobbes had DID, she may have also been possessed by something else. Anderson also said that the original script was to have more of a paranormal/ghost feel to it, but he realized that it's far more terrifying to think about mental disease as something communicable. The asylum had been through such traumatic events and held such troubled people that it held one (if not many) of the evils and was finally able to release it when the crew came in and began working. The asylum (or Simon) realized that Gordon was weak and took advantage of his weakness, driving him slowly insane with the rising tensions in his home and at work (being forced to do a huge job in a very limited time, which Gordon promised so that he could secure the job).
Also, there was a completely scrapped (yet still filmed) sub-plot where one of the released patients came back to the asylum and although she wasn't sane, knew that Gordon killing his friends wasn't right, and she killed him. If you watch the title scene where the chair in the hallway starts upside down and slowly around, somebody stomps by at the far end of the hallway. That was this woman. Once her story was cut from the script, we are left to assume it is a ghost, but once we learn that he is "weak and wounded," we are left to assume it is Gordon roaming the halls.
I've seen this movie many, many times. I've also listened to the commentary a few times, as it's my favorite movie. Brad Anderson and crew did a fantastic job of creating a tense, "who-done-it" film set it an actual abandoned asylum that was demolished shortly after filming wrapped. While shooting Session 9, many of the film's crew and actors had strange feelings, heard voices and thought the building(s) to be truly haunted. Even the soundtrack was scary, full of dread and strange tape-warble and blips. I own the soundtrack, much of which was created on location by Anderson and crew dragging bass drums up and down the hallways, letting the asylum itself create it's own music.
So, in summation, it's both a ghost story and a psychological story. It doesn't have to be just one or the other. -
ulrik_sorte — 12 years ago(June 22, 2013 06:46 AM)
First of all I have to say this is one of my favorite movies, and I struggle to understand why people dislike this film. When it comes to all these theories I agree with OP about the medical condition being the basis for this movie. However, I never thought about Gordon being a former patient.
When watching the film with this in my back head, I noticed Gordon really seemed as is he had been there before. Firstly, his reaction when Bill explains hydra therapy tells me he could have some experience with it. And some minutes later, Bill tells Gordon to hold up, after Gordon just startet leading the way. This could be signs of him knowing the place. But then again, how could Phil not be aware of this after knowing Gordon a long time? If Gordon was thrown out in the 80's, it would have been over 10 years, so I guess its possible.