More plot holes
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Back to the Future Part III
deli584876 — 9 years ago(August 16, 2016 04:13 PM)
Yeah yeah I know it's just a movie but there's a few things that always bothered me.
- Okay so Marty goes back to the old west to save Doc from being shot by Buford. But an Indian arrow rips the fuel line and spills all the gas out. So it won't run due to lack of fuel. Obviously there were no gas stations in 1885 so they have to find a way to artificially push the delorean up to 88 mph and send them back to 1985 and Doc is saved.
But here's the kicker. Doc wrote Marty a letter and had it sent to him via Western Union with the instruction of him receiving it 70 years later. So why couldn't Doc simply go back to WU and add a page to his letter saying "PS if you decide to come here to rescue me, please bring an extra can of gas"? - Wouldn't it disrupt the space time continuum less if Doc brought Clara back with him to 1985? She was supposed to have died in 1885 but Doc and Marty intervened. So with her living and getting married to Doc and having children with him in the 1800's, it would drastically change the future. Their kids would eventually find wives and have kids who would eventually find spouses and have more kids, and so on. But those wives that Doc and Clara's sons would marry were originally supposed to have married and had kids with different men. So it would erase generations of people as well as events and accomplishments done by them. If Doc and Clara married and had kids in the 1980's, it wouldn't disrupt anything. Their sons would marry women who never existed or had kids and life would run its course.
- Wouldn't Doc be caught in an endless time loop? If he lived the rest of his life in the old west, he would have died somewhere from the early 1900's to about the 1920's. But would be reborn a few decades later and his life would start all over and it would keep going!!
- Okay so Marty goes back to the old west to save Doc from being shot by Buford. But an Indian arrow rips the fuel line and spills all the gas out. So it won't run due to lack of fuel. Obviously there were no gas stations in 1885 so they have to find a way to artificially push the delorean up to 88 mph and send them back to 1985 and Doc is saved.
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TxMike — 9 years ago(August 17, 2016 06:20 AM)
So why couldn't Doc simply go back to WU and add a page to his letter saying "PS if you decide to come here to rescue me, please bring an extra can of gas"?
You mean after Marty arrives to 1885, and after Doc learns all the fuel is gone, at that time go back to WU and send another letter telling him to bring an extra can of fuel? (gas wouldn't work)
If that is what you mean I suppose the scriptwriters could have done that. But then it would not have provided the story and ending they wanted, would it?
In a broader sense, when looking at "options" in a fictional script,
any number of different things could have been done with almost every situation.
But the scriptwriters have to make choices, based on how they want the story to run its course, so any of us asking "Couldn't they have done so-and-so?" the answer is usually
"yes, they could have, if that is what they wanted."
.... TxMike ....
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes not. With a time machine I never feel alone. -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(August 17, 2016 02:00 PM)
None of those are actual plot holes.
On the first two
Doc's not expecting Marty to arrive in 1885 because the time traveller retains their memories in the BTTF world (this is consistent throughout the trilogy). So he can only add extra info to the letter after Marty arrives, which means that Marty will take extra fuel to 1885 with another Marty there with Doc. An other Marty didn't disappear at the mall in part 1, or in 1955 when he went back for the almanac in part 2. So either one Marty stays stuck in 1885 or they both go back. Not really a good idea.
Doc's always overthinking/overreacting about everything. Even if you're right, I don't see it as a plot hole when he never said anything about that to Marty when he said they should take Clara. Just that he didn't think he should do what he's told Marty not to - use it for your own gain. Later he obviously contradicts himself, again very consistent with Doc's character. -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(August 19, 2016 02:26 PM)
Completely different situations.
Marty's family comes back in the photo because George and Lorraine are in love and their fate is back on track.
Griff's photo appears in the paper because it's the next day's paper.
The matchbox changes because Marty took one, burned the book thus destroying the alternate reality Biff created, and they are his real self's Auto detailing cards.
A can of fuel can't just appear because Doc adds to or writes a new letter.
If it did that would be a plot hole because it would contradict the rules of the previous movies.
Again, another Marty would have to arrive with it only after the other Marty's already there because Doc's not expecting him, he wants him to just go home. If it happened (which it wouldn't because fuel would be around within a few years anyway), the first Marty would have had to grow old outside of his own timeline until 1955 when his other younger self gets the letter to bring extra fuel or to just not pull the arrow out of the delorean.
Marty's already there, his changes are locked in.
Just like when he goes back to the mall at the end of part 1, or old Biff goes back to 1955 and Marty's there. -
TxMike — 9 years ago(August 19, 2016 04:24 PM)
"Again, another Marty would have to arrive with it only after the other Marty's already there because Doc's not expecting him, he wants him to just go home."
Maybe, but maybe not. Let's try. After Marty arrives and Doc realizes all the fuel is gone he writes a second letter to Western Union, telling them to deliver it, along with the other one, same place and same time. So Marty back when the movie begins no longer gets the one letter, he gets a second one too, "By the way Marty, when you arrived here (against my instructions) your fuel line was punctured, please if you decide to come bring a can of fuel. Two gallons will do."
So Marty would have gotten both letters
before he ever traveled back to 1885
so when he decided to go he would bring the fuel, all the rest would happen the way we see it but he would have spare fuel, they would not need to rig the train, etc. And it would have been a quite different movie.
So tell us, why wouldn't it work that way?
.... TxMike ....
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes not. With a time machine I can never feel alone! -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(August 19, 2016 06:55 PM)
After Marty arrives and Doc realizes all the fuel is gone he writes a second letter
So Marty would have gotten both letters before he ever travelled back to 1885
I don't get what you're saying, you've just contradicted yourself.
Doc would be writing the second letter only AFTER Marty has already arrived because he's NOT expecting him. How else is he going to know the fuel line was punctured?
He can make sure he gets as many letters as he wants at the same time to tell him about it but it doesn't change the fact there will be still another Marty waiting with him in 1885 who got only the one letter in the first place in 1955. -
TxMike — 9 years ago(August 20, 2016 07:29 AM)
Well it would work this way, as I visualize it. BTTF3 plays out as we see it, when Marty is with Doc in his barn and they discuss the mishap causing the leaked out fuel, Doc says "Let me write another letter." When he returns from Western Union he says, "Now Marty, let's go check the car and see what we can find in it." When they get there they find a can of fuel neatly tucked into the rear seat area, because the second letter got to Marty before he left to travel back to 1885. There would be no need for two Martys, he would never have traveled to 1885 without the can of fuel in the first place.
Since it is all in an implausible, fictional world then why not?
.... TxMike .... -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(August 20, 2016 12:09 PM)
Because even in the sci/fi/fantasy genre you have to stick to the rules you have laid out like Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale did.
That would be a cheat of the worst kind and a huge plothole in the entire trilogy because the time traveller retain their memories in the BTTF world.
Marty has no memories of his "new" family in part 1, Marty and Doc know the alternative 1985 isn't real when they arrive, and 1985 Doc isn't expecting Marty to arrive in 1885 after he left 1955 Doc at the drive-in.
But a change in the letter would make a fuel can appear, and Marty either doesn't know how or why which would make no sense because he had to have brought it or the memories are transported to him which still makes no sense because of the rules it has set up. -
libra113 — 9 years ago(September 17, 2016 02:49 PM)
What always got me is that 1885 Doc (who is from 1985) SHOULD know everything that 1955 Doc knows. So he SHOULD know that Buford is going to shoot him and WHY Marty is there and that he even dressed Marty in the silly 50's western style clothing.
For that matter Doc should've known, since 1955, that he would end up in 1885 eventually as he even read his own letter himself. -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(September 17, 2016 07:33 PM)
In the movie's reality, the time traveller retains their memories. It's the rules they stuck with throughout the trilogy - Marty returns to 1985 at the end of the first movie and remembers his family as losers, Marty and Doc return to alternative 1985 and don't have the experiences of been in that world - Switzerland or a mental institution etc, they remember the old Hill Valley.
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libra113 — 9 years ago(September 17, 2016 07:58 PM)
Yeah, except those situations it makes sense. In the situation I described it doesn't. There is no reason in all time travel theory I've ever read that 1985 Doc wouldn't already know he was going to be killed, that he sent Marty and that it was his 1955 self that dressed him the silly 50's idea of western clothing.
For that matter 1985 Doc SHOULD know that Marty was going to end up in 1955 at some point, at the very beginning. Actually, that might be how he ended up deciding to befriend Marty in the first place because his 1955 self knew who his parents were and that he would end up traveling back in time so he had to befriend Marty to make sure it all happened. -
mcp-69798 — 9 years ago(September 19, 2016 04:46 PM)
It makes sense. The Doc that ends up in 1885 never experiences Marty telling him in 1955 he would be stuck in the Old West and never finds out he would be killed by Buford. The events in the beginning of part III never happen in the 1955 of this Doc. As buddyboy says, time travelers retain their memories. Doc can't remember something that, from his perspective, has never happened.
"You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!" -
mcp-69798 — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 03:28 AM)
It works that way in the BTTF universe. Can you explain why do you think what I said "makes no sense"? Marty doesn't remember growing up with a confident and succesful father, does he? He retains his memories from the unaltered timeline he's lived in. Same case with the Doc stuck in 1885 we see in part III.
"You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!" -
libra113 — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 07:32 AM)
Marty does't remember that for two reasons: (1) He is the one who changed the past in the first place and he was outside of his normal time stream when it happened. Pretty much all time travel media and theory supports that.
However, in the case of 1955 Doc he neither changed events nor was he outside his native time stream so there is no reason whatsoever why his wouldn't remember what transpired between he and 1985 Marty down through the years to his 1985 self living in 1885.
I will say "Back to the Future" in general plays fast and loose with how time travel typically works for story conviene but this one always bugged me more than most. Mostly because it wouldn't have really hurt the story to have Doc acknowledge that he remembered sending Marty back to 1885 and putting him in the silly 50's cowboy clothes. In fact it would have helped the story because Marty wouldn't have had to explain to him what was going on he just would've known and even just hinting that Doc has known since 55 that he was going to end up in the old west and kept it to himself for the good of the time stream.
The only way it might have hurt anything would've been explaining why the Doc didn't put something in his letter about being in danger and needed him to come get him out of 1885 or why he didn't just avoid Bufford and thus avoid the whole issues but that could be explained away as he was willing to accept his fate rather than risk the damage to time and he tried to avoid Bufford but no matter what he did history kept winning out. -
EmpireKing — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 11:15 AM)
I don't know why it matters if you've never heard of any theory of time travel like that. It's all fiction so the filmmakers can make up whatever rules they want about it and these are the rules in Back To The Future. It sounds like you want every time travel movie to have the same scenarios which would be dull.
1985 Doc is just carrying on living his life because Marty wasn't there in 1955 to give him the letter in the first place.
The time traveller's actions may change their surroundings and position in the altered future, and people outside of the time travelling experience sees no change and just knows everything that occurred in their timeline and they don't get a sudden rush of information to make their memories up to date according to the new timeline.
Also, Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale were clever because they deliberately left things open throughout the trilogy so you could interpret some things for yourself rather than trapping themselves. Which is one of the reasons why the movies remain endlessly fascinating to talk about.
For instance, we definetly know that time travellers keep their memories in these movies there's no disputing that but it's also never explicitly said they never will get those memories at any time later on gradually. We also know the ripple effect is a very common thing in these movies after major changes which admittedly depending on the scenario takes longer or quicker than others.
So Marty goes from 1955 to 1985 in the first movie, Doc instantly has the letter and bulletproof vest which makes sense because he's gone forward through time and Doc has stayed in his own timeline for 30 years.
But when Marty pushed George out of the way of the car he or his brother and sister didn't just erase. The ripple effect meant it took a few days. Same with old Biff altering the past and getting the Delorean back to Hilldale.
Even though Marty is going to see Doc's older self in 1885, he's still going to the past to see the Doc who's outside of his own timeline, and the ripple effect in the previous movies tells us any major changes are not instant, so Doc wouldn't have instant memories anyway should he get any memories all in this scenario. -
libra113 — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 01:04 PM)
No, it's not that they should all the same so much as if they're going to make up rules they should make sense and not just because the rules applied the same through out the movies but they should make logical sense in themselves.
1985 Doc not remembering that 1955 Doc sent Marty to 1885 and that he's going to be shot doesn't make sense.
As for the ripple effect, yeah a LOT of movies, TV shows, etc have used the delayed effect as a plot device since, it it was instant, there wouldn't be any movie. It also creates a paradox since the minute Marty is erased he wouldn't be there to push George out the way in the first place.
Actually, it makes sense that it would take time for them to be fully erased for two reasons: (1) George and Loraine didn't actually fall in love until they kissed at the dance and (2)it would, theoretically, take time for the time line between 1955 and 1985 to reorder itself (so to speak).
Of course, as I've said, "Back to the Future" does play fast and loose with a lot of time travel stuff and characters do seem to be kind of blind to certain thing (Robot Chicken had a funny bit where George accuses Loraine of meeting up with their friend Marty again, after high school, since their Marty looks just like him and has the same name). Mostly, it's unexplained plot convenience and mostly can be forgiven.
This one just kind of bugged me since it's so glaring. It would've been better to just omit the Doc asking him why he was there and who dressed him in his silly outfit and jump right to the scene where Marty's just explained it all to him. That, at least, wouldn't have put such a spotlight on it.
Oh and in regards to Marty and him remembering the old time line. There is a theory that the longer he lived in the new time line the more he would forget the old one and his memories would reorder themselves. Some theories say he would remember both time lines equally.
I've seen some versions where the new memories are formed painfully even causing brain damage and nose bleeds and others where it's just stated that the character remembers both. In any case, as you say, we don't see it, mostly because the doesn't stick around for long.