I still can't understand…..
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Born on the Fourth of July
sonofbeach-sheet — 16 years ago(January 07, 2010 07:58 PM)
Why the WW2 veterans and to a lesser degree, the Korean war veterans were honored and looked at as heroes, whereas the Vietnam vets were hated and reviled. Even the scene when Cruise is in a bar, a fellow Marine that was in WW2 treats him like he's a piece of beep
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BobStage — 16 years ago(January 19, 2010 01:50 PM)
Because WW2 ended the Holocaust, and the spread of Nazism.
The Korean war fought the spread of Communism back when it was popular to do so.
The Vietnam war just dragged on that stupid ideal of the Cold War and showed how pointless it was to have the two sides keep antagonizing each other.
But yeah, the scene with the WW2 vet is a bit odd. Maybe because of the media focused on such things as My Lai and whatnot he has a prejudice against those who fought in Vietnam. I dunno for sure, though. -
MovieMusings — 13 years ago(July 26, 2012 11:16 PM)
Times change, and several things happened that changed America.
First of all, TV happened. During the previous wars, people "at home" could not see what was actually going on. Media could tell them stories and they would believe it because there was nothing else by which they'd know otherwise.
Soldiers were symbols of authority, state, order, and thus WW1 and WW2 veterans were champions of the age's values.
By Vietnam War, TV was this new thing, and they rolled live cameras in Vietnam before realizing that it would undermine support. The facade fell, and the vile reality of war was no longer hidden behind a veil of sanitized propaganda.
Second of all, social values were changing. During WW2, there was still "respect for authority, trust in government," etc. By the time of the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights and hippie movements brought sweeping dismissal of the status quo. Whereas it was previously cool to be establishment, it had all of a sudden became cool to be disestablishment.
Therefore, by this stage, Vietnam vets had become symbols of all that was wrong with America, things that had to change, and now could possibly change because "the people" were pushing for change.
Third of all, concepts of purity changed. WW1 happened very soon after the Federal Reserve Act was passed, but this was still a mighty long time ago. In Canada, for example, income tax didn't get invented until the war was almost over, in 1917, and it was established "to pay for the war."
The stock market crashed in 1929 and the West wallowed in a stalled economy as modern economics still hadn't yet crystallized. In fact, the ignition of WW2 connected some ideas and all of a sudden it became clear that wars can make money. But, this wasn't evident to "the people", so WW2 could remain a war of ideal, for something worth fighting for.
By the time of Vietnam, people began to feel comfortable asking out loud, "wait, what are we doing in Vietnam again?" Soldiers were also coming back to America and asking those questions allowed. "We were told to take a hill, we lost so many men we called it Hamburger Hill, and when we finally took it, we were told we don't need it anymore. WTF is going on?"
The confusion, the lack of a clear ideal, all eroded confidence that Vietnam had any true valueexcept for the military complex selling bullets and flak jackets and body bags to the government to be used by waves of FNGs (look it up) to take the place of fallen brothers.
There was also the government's position. The honour bestowed upon WW1 and WW2 vets was not bestowed upon Vietnam vets, because the government saw the Vietnam War differently. So, vets were coming back and being neglected because the government's involvement was not about ideals for which they were thankful that boys went to die; it wasn't for democracy or freedom, it was for money, and the only way to make money was for American boys to go and die (to sell more new fatigues, more bullets, more helmets and boots and radios and guns and back packs to the government).
As the vets, who looked up to and wanted to be like their WW2 vet fathers and WW1 vet grandfathers, found themselves discarded, they themselves turned against the government and lead anti-war rallies. And then they saw their government repealing rights they thought they'd gone to Vietnam to die for - such as the right to free assembly being blasted apart by cops in riot gear. Imagine, a Vietnam vet trying to freely speak at an assembly and being attacked by cops, on American soil? They themselves, like Kovic, had been "patriotic Americans" and ended up facing a rude awakening that the America they knew, "where everything made sense" (as Kovic said after collapsing after the fight, laying in the sand in Mexico), was gone. Indeed, many consider America's brightest days to have been the 1950s.
There's plenty more to consider, such as the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the barrage of high profile assassinations in the 1960s, and of course, Watergate.
For all these reasons, the treatment of WW1 and WW2 vets couldn't be extended to Vietnam vets - the times had changed, and there was no going back.
For the boys and men who went to fight in Vietnam, politics and conspiracies aside, we should not forget them. They believed, and died for their belief that what they were told was true.
One of the best Vietnam movies I've ever seen is We Were Soldiers, and it does a great job of providing insight into very early evidence that things were not the same with this war as with wars previous (the way in which death notices were delivered, etc.) The gist of that film is that, regardless how anyone feels about the rightness or wrongness of the war, the soldiers should not be blamed, they just did what they thought they were supposed to do. And, at the end of the day, they were soldiers once, and young. They were men who thought they'd return to real American lives, who had no idea of the horrors they'd face, with no therapy or counselling to -
geoffrey-jackson — 13 years ago(September 06, 2012 10:05 PM)
Thank you for your detailed post.
I can see all of the points you raised (TV, social values, idealism, prosperity, government's position, atrocities and assassinations) applicable to and surrounding all wars either before or since Vietnam. The unique event surrounding Vietnam was Nixon's political campaign. He divided the nation. -
LovingBooks — 13 years ago(October 03, 2012 01:17 PM)
I had posted about this topic on another thread (the one about abuse to Vietnam vets when they returned home) and touched on most of the points you made. I didn't speak as eloquently as you, though!
I was interested in your point about the economics of that time, and in the preceding wars. Until recent times, nothing was better than a war for the country' s economy! But you were right about that point, and you mentioned the Warren Commission and the Kennedy Assassination. That particular tragedy was enough to spark cultural cynicism and doubt in the minds of America's youth/counterculture.
Then you have events like My Lai and William Calley, everyone, it seems has gone ape beep crazy.
Thanks for the good post, you would have been great to have in History/Issues and Debates Class! -
linop90 — 13 years ago(November 04, 2012 02:13 AM)
Beacuse they lost well the US lost.
The mighty america was beaten by little black guys in black pyjammas and third rate chinese weapons.
TO many older Americans, this was the unthinkable. America never loses.
Eat the Neocons. -
al666940 — 13 years ago(November 14, 2012 03:22 PM)
Same as previous poster.
But also, the ONLY time wars make money in general and kickstart the economy is by:- raising raxes (war taxes) to foot the war bill
- increasing government intervention on the economy
- fighting it elsewhere.
Negate the last point and it's a lose-lose situation. No invaded country ever profits off of war (unless it still wins and is allowed to consume the loser, as in Rome-Carthage), just check with Europe and even England (those V2 rockets did a good enough job).
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nbulous — 13 years ago(November 21, 2012 03:23 AM)
Thank you for this post.
Before I visited this thread, I had this on in the background:
And left it on as I read your post, which made your post even more impactful. One of the best posts I've ever read on imdb.
Excuse me, where are you taking us?
Mexico
What's in Mexico?
Mexicans -
ryan-anderson — 13 years ago(November 15, 2012 04:38 PM)
In the case of the Marine in the bar, I think its just as simple as he said: he got tired of hearing Kovic whine (especially since he was a volunteer as the older marine noted). Marines aren't big on whining.
Stone probably was trying to portray what you speak of here though.
Ignoring: RonPaul_Lies, Digby (and aliases), Rico, GameBoyFan, ibestupid, Holiday_Hobo, sharon_18, TilaMoo, Okie-from-Muskogee/boo321, NorCalNik, Nullifidian -
movies789 — 10 years ago(July 12, 2015 10:27 AM)
Your premise is so stunningly ridiculous, it's almost amusing. I assume you weren't of age by 1975 or before, or you'd know how silly it is to have described returning servicemen as being "hated and reviled". As for the scene of the older veteran belittling the younger one: I hate to shatter anyone's illusions, but It wasn't real life. It was a movie. Written by a writer, produced by a producer, acted by actors, and directed by a director - all with angry chips on their shoulders - to conform to a rigid, angry narrative. Don't swallow everything you see in a movie - let alone an Oliver Stone movie.
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eddieinportland — 9 years ago(August 30, 2016 01:21 PM)
I'm a veteran of the first gulf war. My father is a veteran of the Vietnam War.
I remember when I was a child my father trying to join the local chapter of the VFW. I remember how the World War 2 and Korean veterans treat my father. I remember them telling him that because he and other Vietnam veterans lost their war. They can't join the VFW and they should make their own group.
The way they treated my father stuck with me for a long time. I still fell anger about it. I still won't join my local VFW chapter because of that.
It's funny now because most members in the VFW are now Vietnam and Gulf War veterans. -
movies789 — 9 years ago(August 30, 2016 02:41 PM)
So much to respond to; so little time.
That's quite a remarkable memory for detail you have there, what with your being such a young boy at the time and all. Since your post, I've being trying to recall equally detailed give-and-take of my own dad's adult conversations when I was a young boy, and I've drawn a blank. No doubt your dad had you tag along to act as stenographer for such an odd, adult, group, sit-down, extended conversation.
For my part, not being much of a joiner at the time, I remember having to resist some aggressive but cordial recruitment efforts by various veterans' groups (mostly WWII vets), who were constantly on the prowl for new, young, dues-paying members, regardless of their age or the war they were in. They just wanted fresh, new blood; they weren't snooty about my being post-WWII/Korea. And there certainly wasn't any holier-than-thou sneering about our having "lost" our war. (You'll remember that the Korean War wasn't "won", either.)
As for your bitter refusal to join any veterans' group now, perhaps that's best for all concerned. And as for the "funny" irony that their membership rolls now consist mostly of Vietnam, Gulf War, Afghanistan and Iraq vets: of course they do. News flash: people age - even VFW members.
Sorry for my annoyance, but I have little patience for fabricated tales-of-woe by whiners with an Oliver Stone-like ax to grind. (Not you; just saying.) -
eddieinportland — 9 years ago(September 06, 2016 07:10 PM)
Well when my father went to the VFW to see how he could join up. I wanted to go and see the veterans.
I was young. I grew up in a family where everyone joined up for the armed service. Our family bible has a listing of family members that joined the military. What branch or service, job, units, and what war they fought in. That is if they went to war.
I was so disappointed on how one group of veterans treated another veteran from a different war. I just didn't like it. Other members of my family have joined. And they've asked me to join up. I've just said no thank you. But I'll see you at the Veteran's Day events.
As for me remembering that event with my father at the VFW. As my parents, family, wife and close friends will always tell me that I remember every single slight that I've seen happen to me or those that I love.
Take care.