Lester's utterly beguiling and engaging sequel…..
-
Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Superman II
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 07:32 AM)
….is to my mind, not only the best Superman film, but perhaps one of the best ever superhero films.
Much has been said about how Richard Lester replaced Richard Donner due to a falling out Donner had with the producers. Lester re-shot huge chunks of the film and while some of Donner's work is retained, (all of Hackman's and Marshall's scenes included), Lester gave his own visual flair to the film with nice touches of comedic flourish to balance out the more darker scenes of mayhem.
The film clips along wonderfully with one memorable scene after another and is superbly cast and excellently acted. Reeve and Kidder are the quintessential Kal-El/Clark Kent and Lois Lane.
Terence Stamp as the megalomaniac General Zod is terrific, along with Sarah Douglas as Ursa, who plays one sexy and wicked evil bitch. Stamp's spot on line delivery and situational comic timing is a thing to behold. He is cruel, sadistic and ruthless, yet also deviously charming and classy. Evil acting doesn't get better than this.
I prefer Lester's version to Donner's cut. To be fair to Donner, he couldn't re-shoot scenes and had to use screen test footage, yet I miss the scenes that were taken out. Reeve and Kidder had a great on-screen rapport and there was nothing wrong with how Lester handled them, especially in the Honeymoon suite at Niagara.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
WarrenPeace — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 06:29 PM)
It is one of the best sequels of all time.
Up there with ESB and Aliens.
"To be fair to Donner, he couldn't re-shoot scenes and had to use screen test footage, yet I miss the scenes that were taken out. Reeve and Kidder had a great on-screen rapport and there was nothing wrong with how Lester handled them, especially in the Honeymoon suite at Niagara."
Yeah, about that.
There are two versions of how/when Lois finds out Clark is Supes.
In the Donner version she shoots him with blanks making him think she shot him with a real gun.
The scene, as you mention, is screen test footage which they should not have included in the Donner cut because it is so obvious that it is.
It is also badly acted and Supes would have seen there were blanks in the gun and/or have seen the bullet coming at him as he did in Supes 1 where he stopped a bullet shot at Lois by a mugger.
In the Lester one Clark trips on a rug and his hand goes into a fire and Lois sees it didn't burn.
Another lame idea since I doubt that Supes would have pretended to be clumsy like that.
Unless he did it to reveal himself to Lois that way.
Seems like the writers were stumped on how to properly expose Clark as Supes to Lois.
"Please vote to preserve the unique character of Warren…" - Robert Duvall -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 09:53 PM)
That is a good point about Clark being clumsy by tripping on that pink rug head, but Clark's persona was clumsy and Kal-El had learned how to keep his alter ego in character. His klutziness is always amusing and it was more typical of him to do something like this, than Lois making a stupid attempt to murder him.
I like the humor more of Lester's version and I don't have any issue with images of Supes mother replacing his father, due to Brando thinking he was the bees knees during production.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
Joc Spader — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 11:01 PM)
I like the humor more of Lester's version and I don't have any issue with images of Supes mother replacing his father, due to Brando thinking he was the bees knees during production.
I just knew that man who kept laughing in the phone booth while everything was blowing around was a Lester addition. It's not here in the Donner cut but I did see a man's toupee fly off
Tell you what…When I send my ex-wife her money…you can lick the stamps. -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 12:08 AM)
When I watch Donner's version, I miss the scenes that were deleted and because I never had any issue with them in the first place, it changes the tone of what I expect to see.
Lester wanted the film to reflect a more comic book approach and I truly believe he balanced it out expertly with the more action/intense orientated scenes. Nothing is lost with the humor either and how we are meant to feel about the 3 rouge Krypton villains.
I say part of the reason Donner was let go of, was perhaps because of his more austere approach.
Superman II
theatrical cut is no-where near as ponderous as Donner's first film either. Not to mention the ending of Donner's version is almost identical to the first with the turning back the world sequence.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
WarrenPeace — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 11:43 PM)
I agree with everything except for Clark tripping on the rug.
I just think they should have come up with a totally different situation where Lois discovers Clark and Supes are the same.
Maybe not at Niagara Falls.
Like they get back home and she just happens to see him changing into his SM costume or something like that.
I would still like to get this movie though.
The Lester version because between the two the rug is the better situation.
"Please vote to preserve the unique character of Warren…" - Robert Duvall -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 12:14 AM)
You can watch both versions on here.
I think Clark wanted Lois to know, because she would keep at him otherwise like the pest she was.
Reeve was a very handsome and beautiful looking man, while Kidder wasn't a generic beauty by any measure, she still had spunk and charisma and she was a klutz too. They were so beautifully cast together.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
I love hutch — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 10:05 PM)
Also "Jaws 2" and "Friday, the 13th Part 2"
"Let's try to think beyond the legend. What would he be like today? Some out of control psychopath? A frightened retard?"
God, I love political incorrectness.
"My life is over. I might as well dance with Johnny Slash!" -
WarrenPeace — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 11:39 PM)
Those sequels you mention don't seem to me to get the attention that I know of.
Maybe they are in the "Top ten sequels of all time" lists somewhere but IMO they are not household names as others are.
"Let's try to think beyond the legend. What would he be like today? Some out of control psychopath? A frightened retard?"
Where is that from???
"God, I love political incorrectness."
So do I bro. So do I.
"Please vote to preserve the unique character of Warren…" - Robert Duvall -
I love hutch — 3 years ago(May 07, 2022 11:54 PM)
"Jaws 2" is not in any top ten best sequels and "Friday, the 13th, Part 2" definitely isn't. I just happen to love both of them.
Though, I read once that the "Jaws 2" does have the most memorable tagline ever used for a movie.
"Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water."
The dialogue I cited was from the bar scene in the Jason Voorhees sequel.
"My life is over. I might as well dance with Johnny Slash!" -
Jim Shortz — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 12:08 AM)
Superman II is a great sequel. For all the hype around donner/lester, the decision to go with a new director had basically worked out for the better. He was the Irvin Kershner of the superman series.
I like all four of the Reeve Superman's. The fourth is basically an action movie and works at that. There's no one like Chris Reeve's Superman. Henry Cavill blows. -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 12:21 AM)
He was the Irvin Kershner of the superman series.
Great analogy and
Empire…
and
Robocop 2
I prefer over the originals.
Lester is a fine director in his own right and was making excellent films before Donner came on the scene, (
renowned for his Beatles comedies
), yet fanboys were acting like Donner was a god regarding Superman and that he had been hard done by and
Superman II
as though it would have been a better film. Supe II was already revered and favored as it was.
Even Reeve was allegedly quoted as saying that
Superman II
is the best of the series.
I don't like
Man Of Steel
, too serious and boring, but I like
Superman Returns.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
Jim Shortz — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 01:24 AM)
Yes I don't know who directed what scene in Superman II, but the film worked overall. Lester did well in Superman III, the casting of a near catatonic Richard Pryor spoiled that movie, not lester.
Great analogy and Empire… and Robocop 2 I prefer over the originals.
Robocop 2 certainly is a bit lighter than the original. Magnavolt, sunblock 5000 and the born to be wild violin guy come to mind, always laugh at those scene. I think I'm one of the few SW fans that thinks the 77 movie is better than ESB, though. -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 03:05 AM)
I started on
Superman III
last night. Haven't seen for a while. There are some excellent scenes. I love the opening with all the slapstick mayhem, its funny and it works, and the alter-ego Clark vs Superman sequence is one of the best of the franchise.
I've always liked Empire over Hope, yet I don't think Lucas is that great a director. He got lucky with the first
Star Wars
.
Robocop 2
is glossier, but I find it quite creepy as well. Cain scares me.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
Jim Shortz — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 04:44 AM)
and the alter-ego Clark vs Superman sequence is one of the best of the franchise.
Agreed 100%. It's fantastic stuff. Worthy of the first two.
I've always liked Empire over Hope, yet I don't think Lucas is that great a director. He got lucky with the first Star Wars.
Yes, Lucas proved with the rest of his career that he fluked out with Star wars 77. I think everything fell into his lap and he was probably amazed at the end result. I doubt the finished product even resembled his original vision. He proved with the special editions and prequels that he was just a lucky film maker who made the most of his limited talent. He had a good eye for actors, I'll give him that. Mark Hamill was perfect casting.
I bought American Graffiti and THX on dvd and I thought both were dull. What do people see in these films?
Robocop 2 is glossier, but I find it quite creepy as well. Kane scares me.
Yes, Kane is a scary guy. Do you find the evisceration of Duffy more disturbing than Murphy's torture-murder in the original? -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(May 08, 2022 06:06 AM)
I don't mind
American Graffiti
. It has an outlandish feel about it. Lucas, (like Nolan), I find is more of an ideas kinda guy, than a director ideal to deal with actors and direct something himself. He's no Spielberg.
He was lucky with
Star Wars
, that the cast came to the party and gave of themselves 110% and it was well balanced with the casting of 2 old pros like Guiness and Cushing who may have even acted as coaches. His episodes 1, 2 & 3 were quite abysmal. He was wise to hand over the directors reins for 7,8 & 9.
It was the less is more approach that made Duffy's torture-murder more disturbing. I didn't find the Murphy mutilation sequence that scary to witness, in either the R rated and unrated cut, which is fake looking at any rate.
The warehouse sequence when the Cainbot attacks, is well directed and presented. When watching it, I often think about what I could do to hide and get away from him.
Norman! What did you put in my tea?