How tough was that training, compared to Marine or Airborne basic
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — The Devil's Brigade
garand-son — 20 years ago(July 21, 2005 10:17 PM)
I've watched the movie, several times. It's one of my favorites, but I wonder, compared to U.S. Marine Corps or U.S. Army Airborne, how tough was that training?
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ladybegood64 — 20 years ago(December 10, 2005 04:04 PM)
The Forcemen's training was extensive, tough but expedited as per the needs of a wartime military and the original timeline of the Force's mission. However, the Forcemen received extensive weapons training, including captured German weapons, demolitions training, mountaineering training (including some skills that are more likely seen these days at something like the Cold Weather Leader's Course) and airborne training, albeit three jumps at Fort Benjamin Harrison as opposed to five at Fort Benning. Physical training was rigorous and long distance forced marches common. Although it is true that recruiting was heavily slanted toward outdoorsmen for their unique skills and qualities, it must be said that Gen. Frederick was himself a career staff officer and Coastal Artillerymen, who simply had the skill and drive to put together a first class unit. One might never get that impression from looking at the man, but he certainly had everything it took to lead such an outstanding unit.
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roscoe-11 — 20 years ago(January 06, 2006 11:52 AM)
not to mention the advanced hand to hand combat instruction they received from Pat O'Neil, their airborne jumps were actually only 2 as time was short, they figured the first jump was if you had the guts to do it and the 2nd was necessary because you knew what you were getting into at that point and if you jumped the 2nd time you would have proven yourself.
the force training was very rough and they were trained in many more ways than any other infantry outfit. they had the airborne training same as other airborne outfits, they had amphibious assault training like the rangers, mountain trainig like the 10th mountain division and raider/sneak attack training ofetc though while in the US for training, their demolitions training was up there as one of their favorites, they would routinely blow bridges with twice the amount of explosives needed which would shatter many a window nearby in the town of helena montana, I've not heard of Fort Benjamin Harrison but they did indeed move around alot for their training though their home base where they were formed was at fort William Henry Harrison. -
buckboard — 20 years ago(January 26, 2006 12:38 AM)
This post appears to be preaching to the choiri.e. you all seem well-versed on the FSSF, but to respond to points made in this and the other thread:
Fort WH Harrison was at Helena, Montana. Most of the training was conducted here. Fort BENJAMIN Harrison is in Indianapolis, Indiana and until closed in 1991 was the "home" of the Army Finance Center. During WWII it was a draft induction center, housede schools for the Finance Corps, Chaplains, and Cooks and Bakers, and had the largest military prison in the US.
The training and mission of the FSSF was as rigorous as that of the USMC or airborne, but not as intensive in their specialty areas (amphib and airborne). In effect FSSF was a jack-of-all-trades in special warfare.
During combat the US-Canadian ratio of troops was 60-40, the TO&E was developed by a Canadian officer along commonwealth lines, the unit used American weapons and uniforms, soldiers were paid at the pay rate of their own service, and their killed-in-action/died-of-wounds/missing casualties were 295 US and 155 Canadian, approx. 25% of the combat forcean extremely high rate.
Their first operation was the invasion of Kiska in the Aleutians, and although the Japanese had already evacuated the island two weeks before the invasion, it was invaluable training.
All of the soldiers were highly motivated volunteers, including the Americans. However in the initial recruiting process many US units sent their misfits to the FSSF, where they were quickly weeded out and returned. The Army let the myth of "gangsters and murderers" live on as a matter of operational security. -
sawyertom — 19 years ago(April 28, 2006 04:50 AM)
Buckboard and Roscoe pretty much had it right. They were also trained in all allied and axis weaponry and were probably what could be called the first super commandoes since they could pretty much do everything. In World War II magazine there was an article where Col. Frederick was acosted by a smartass cop who thought he was too young to actually be his rank. The cop was going to run him in for impersonating a rank other than his own. He knocked out the cop and sent him to the hospital in one punch. They also had a bet where they could stash explosives on a Marine base without them knowing it.Under double guard they succeeded with explosives put under the Marine Commandants barracks or room. So they were pretty elite. The only ones who come close American wise were the Paratroopers and the Ranger units.
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murad23 — 14 years ago(March 13, 2012 06:13 PM)
Aloha 498 below is very wrong. Airborne unit selection and training was considerably more rigorous during the period in quesiton than marine selection or training. much higher nubmers of men were denied entry into airborne, and higher numbers dropped during training of airborne.Airborne could afford to do this because you were simply cycled nto a regular infantry unit if you failed or dd not so proper motivation during the very rigorous training. WWII Airborne training on average, in addition to being more rigorous, was was also of a much longer duration during WWII.
In World war two for example the 11tt airborne received nearly one year of simulated jungle training with extreme, very extreme endurance training in the hottest most humid places the Army could in in the southern US, and then moved to the jungles the south Pacific and the Philippines. They were so well trained, did so well in action in the Philippines, that if the atom bomb hadn't intervened, the 11th airborne was to be the very first troops to hit Japan, a day before marine landings, which was expected to be the single most daunting and difficult action the US military ever faced. -
aloha498 — 18 years ago(August 08, 2007 09:49 PM)
As former Airborne instructor assigned to the Tower Committee at Ft. Benning, I can tell you that Airborne training's primary purpose is to teach Airborne techniques (How to jump out of an aircraft and land safely) in order to provide Airborne qualified troops for Airborne units (Like the 82nd Airborne Division and Special Forces).
Members of other branches may attend the Army's jump schools but today, all the services can provide their own training.
Physical conditioning, forging endurance and reinforcing one's mental fortitude are important aspects of Airborne training.
Students must volunteer for the training. Enlisted personnel will have completed both basic and advanced training before going on to the course. Non-commissioned officers and officers may volunteer as well. It requires great determination to complete the instruction and courage to jump.
Airborne units take pride in that their jump qualified members have volunteered and proven that they can tough it out. This makes for great esprit de corps and produces exceptional fighting units.
Among all the services, U.S. Marine Corps basic and advanced training is probably the toughest for new recruits.
Regardless of service, it is the specialized training that comes after basic and advanced courses that hone skills. Once the individual reaches his assignment, it is the unit training that fine-tunes the squad, platoon, company, etc.
Probably the oldest and one of the most physical and mentally challenging courses is the US Army Ranger School. Equally as demanding, if not more in their own specialties, are UDTs, Seals, Special Forces. There are numerous other elite special ops organizations that require dedication as well.
Although military units are almost always in a state of training and preparedness, it is the dedicated "in theater of operation" training that finally readies individuals and units for their specific mission; ie, recon schools, etc.
So how tough was the training? It's hard to compare because of the enumerable variables given all the possible scenarios. But, it must have been enough. -
roscoe-11 — 18 years ago(September 12, 2007 08:58 AM)
the specific airborne training the forcemen received was brief and intense, I'm not sure how many jumps you require today to get your wings but in world war two with the US airborne, traditionally it was 5, as the devils brigade had a limited time to prepare themselves, they only required 2 jumps, a vet described the reasoning behind it as the first jump shows you how to do it, the second proves you've got the balls to do it again. another vet who was transferred to the force while in italy told me all personnel drew jump pay (whether airborne qualified or not) and signed a document stating theyd jump into combat with no training. a very interesting unit
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unclebubba13 — 18 years ago(December 12, 2007 10:55 PM)
Just something that came to mind when I read roscoe-11's post, the part about Force members who signed saying they'd jump into combat without training.
During the later and darkest days of the battle of Dien Bien Phu French military men from all branches and services (mainland, colonial, and Foreign Legion) volunteered to go in as reinforcements. At first any who were not airborne-qualified were turned down because by then airdrops were the only way to get men and supplies inside the wire. When the need for specialist (radiomen, mechanics, air and artillery observers, etc) as well as combat arms reinforcements became more than dire Col. Pierre Langlais, commander of GAP2 and
de facto
overall commander (it's an interesting story) argued the qualification point with his higher command, saying that an airborne insertion could be accomplished by "any reasonably agile man who had ever hopped off a streetcar." Commanders in Hanoi finally conceded (wartime necessity cuts through a lot of bureaucracy sometimes) and allowed non-qualified volunteers to jump into DBP. I'm going from memory here so don't hold me too fast to it, but I think the number of non-qualified reinforcements who jumped in numbered upward of a thousand.
Now, none of this is to say that it doesn't take a brave soul to jump out of an airplane. As I heard many times during my days in Mother Green, it is not a natural act. roscoe's post reminded me of this bit of war history and bade me think how much bigger one's balls must be to do it without any training other than "Keep your feet and knees together!", if that.
If any of you are interested in learning about that battle and the men who participated in it I highly recommend Dr. Bernard Fall's book
Hell In A Very Small Place
as an excellent telling from the French side.
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"But you can't
have
babies, Stan! Where's the foetus going to gestate? Y'gonna keep it in a box?!" -
ladybegood64 — 18 years ago(January 27, 2008 08:26 PM)
My gaffe on the Fort Benjamin Harrison versus William Henry Harrison. I think I was in the middle of getting some paperwork processed here and for whatever reasons the wires crossed. Any how, given the limits of a brand new indoctrination process under wartime conditions (against the years modern special operations induction programs have had to build their own) the training for the Forcemen would definitely have made them the elite amongst the elite of their day. Bear in mind that the concept of training and advising irregulars in the mold of modern-day US Army Special Forces was as yet also new and run under the separate onus of the then Office of Strategic Services in the American services so a direct comparison to SF is not necessarily apt. The mission of the Force in a modern sense would be considered primarily direct action, a task at which they excelled. A thought I might offer is the idea that their cross training did make Forcemen different from many of their comrades in WWII but was not in and of itself unique nor is it the sole mark of an elite unit. What I can say is that it was and continues to be an excellent method of building esprit d'corps in most militaries, such as in the modern day paratroops and I dare suggest Marines. Worth considering however is that as per the intent of the unit, the Force was capable of conducting deep penetrations in small groups behind enemy lines, using their own initiative, advanced training in multiple combat techniques, physical prowess and knowledge of enemy weapons and tactics. They were counted upon to accept difficult missions, if not seemingly impossible ones and they were successful by all accounts. They also earned a fearsome reputation among their adversaries and and these taken together are the distinctions of an elite unit.
As a modern paratrooper I received far less cross-training outside the use of a parachute versus the experience of my WWII forebearers. Demolitions is an example of one phase that was eliminated entirely between WWII and the present. Likewise, there is significantly less focus on operating in isolated and ad hoc groups behind enemy lines due to the nature of modern para-drops which can centralize a large troop body with intent to create a cohesive lodgment immediately. Being a paratrooper today centers around the idea that you will get their first, by means of a parachute and may have to fight surrounded, but beyond determination and esprit d'corps that is about all that we bring with us. Even with difference, the Force would still have had the edge. As one veteran of the 29th Ranger Battalion once said, although he was happy to have joined another special unit following his transfer to the 101st immediately prior to the Normandy Invasion and received a crash qualification as a parachutist, it was the skills that he received in Ranger training that increased his proficiency as a soldier and allowed him to survive when he might have not. Oddly, following the battle of Cisterna many former Ranger veterans were transfered to the Force and found themselves in good stead. When the Force was later disbanded and jump qualified personnel transferred to airborne divisions, many were disappointed by a perceived drop in status and found themselves serving as senior and experienced mentors to many paratroopers.
Having discussed training with my great-uncle a WWII Marine and veteran of Guadalcanal and the landing on Tarawa, they likewise filled a role as an amphibious vanguard as opposed to an airborne one, but training would have been considered paltry by the standards of the Force. No disservice to either the paratroops or Marines, particularly of the period, but the Force was a unique organization and one with few if any equals. What can be said of all is that they heeded the call and brought distinctions to their units. Those traditions carry through to the modern day in the paratroops, Marines and special operations communities. -
SipteaHighTea — 16 years ago(October 03, 2009 07:50 AM)
The movie should have shown more of the unique training that the men went through like learning how to use enemy weapons. Instead all it show was them doing the same thing that regular soldiers and special forces in basic training like climbing over wooden obstacles, muddy wet ponds, carrying 50 pound packs, etc.
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hankpac — 14 years ago(May 30, 2011 01:55 PM)
Essentially the guys in the movie were undergoing "Commando" training. Not just jump school, which nowadays focuses just on learning to be a parachutist.
Air Assault school (a relatiively newer form of training) focuses on some added skills in rappeling, fast roping and activity in and near a helicopter.
Still 5 jumps for US jump school. -
feakes — 11 years ago(December 29, 2014 03:39 PM)
My great grandfather was a member of the Devil's brigade or as the enemy sometimes called them the little black devils. From what he told my dad the training was extensive and harder then any other branch simply because they were to undertake suicide missions that needed a high rate of success.
The Special forces training ws rugged compared to what the other outfits went under.