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johnlenonomusic — 13 years ago(September 25, 2012 10:08 AM)
They both work in that slot, but one works better for film than the other.
ON STAGE- An unexpected lift from the tragedy just re-enacted in the ballet
- Not so much the vaudevillian turn of the film
- A sardonic, even bitter indictment of the adult society these boys feel they are up against
ON FILM - Has to be played for laughs that early in the film
- Why? It's too early to play the cynicism
- The shoot-from-the-hip irreverence makes them come off as savvy and menacing, if flippantly so, and that must not happen too soon
- Their fortified autonomy, their "us against the woild" philosophy, is a sentiment the audience can accept only after the grudging attempts of "mixing" and "making nice" have proven futile, which hasn't happened in the film
- As such, the song is funny in the film where it was put, but it connects to nothing nothing touches off the song in a way that makes it meaningful
As such, my opinion remains:
"Krupke" works on stage. "Cool" works on film for that spot. But in spite of being better placed in order to do what the film wanted to do, "Krupke" still lays an egg because it comes from nothing that early in the picture. So, my feeling is, move "Cool" because it works better there, but cut "Krupke" because there's no meaningful justification for the tone of the lyrics, and playing it more for the laughs doesn't disguise that. It's funny, but why is it happening? Know what I mean?
I joined IMDB and all I got was this lame-ass signature.
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StrongRex — 12 years ago(June 22, 2013 01:51 PM)
But in spite of being better placed in order to do what the film wanted to do, "Krupke" still lays an egg because it comes from nothing that early in the picture. So, my feeling is, move "Cool" because it works better there, but cut "Krupke" because there's no meaningful justification for the tone of the lyrics, and playing it more for the laughs doesn't disguise that. It's funny, but why is it happening? Know what I mean?
I disagree that "Krupke" came out of nowhere for its spot. Krupke and Schrank had been on the Jets' butts for their behavior possibly for years, and their resentment had just been building up. Making fun of the cops behind their backs is something they've always done. Remember in the beginning when Snowboy mocked Krupke for saying "Goodbye boys"? In the stage version, A-Rab adds "They make a very nice couple" (Krupke and Schrank). And just before the song, one of the other Jets (I believe it was Tiger) mocked Krupke for saying "And don't let me catch the none of youse around here when I get back!" right after he left.
Nothing big really NEEDED to happen for Krupke, because it's not a big, significant song. It's a show stopper; it doesn't move the story in any way. All it reveals is how the Jets view the world and how they believe everyone views them; much of what we already know. They were doing something the exact same thing in the beginning; in this scene it was just made into a song. This refutes your claim that "Krupke" doesn't come from anywhere when placed pre-rumble. Krupke is albeit sarcastic and cynical, but it is still comical and we learn nothing new from it. The song came from Krupke attempting to question the Jets, and of course they didn't like it so they made fun of him after he left.
"Cool" moves the story in a BIG WAY. It makes perfect sense for it to be after the rumble. If I were involved in a serious crime in any way, even if I didn't directly commit it, I would be feeling VERY messed up. I would be worried about what would happen to me and what I should do next. That's exactly how Baby John and A-Rab felt before they met up with the Jets, and when they did, every one of them was feeling exactly like that. Ice gave them that answer with "Cool." There is no reason for that song to be there because nothing big and serious had happened, so there is no reason for them to do what the song says. During that scene, it was okay for them to make fun of the cops because their state of mind allowed them to do so, but it's much more realistic for them to be worried about what the cops would DO to them if they were found after Tony had killed Bernardo. -
johnlenonomusic — 13 years ago(November 20, 2012 03:32 PM)
On film, it laid an egg. It was the right spot for it if you wanted to keep it in, but nothing so big has happened to the Jets to necessitate the anger and sarcasm in that song. It was empty of motivation. On stage, it's more part of the whole. "Cool" is in the best spot for film, and as such, is all that needs to be there. Watch it again knowing "Krupke's" full context. You'll see what I mean.
I joined IMDB and all I got was this lame-ass signature.
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StrongRex — 13 years ago(November 21, 2012 04:46 PM)
Exactly. It's what anyone would do to someone they didn't like who was in a higher position than they were. Students do it to teachers. Employees do it to their bosses. In this case, gang members were doing it to a cop.
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StrongRex — 13 years ago(November 21, 2012 08:25 PM)
And that's what makes the atmosphere so hilarious and lighthearted. That's why it does not fit after the rumble at all; "Cool" fits the tragic, suspenseful atmosphere afterward so much better. Why would anyone lampoon their superior rank behind their backs for the fun of it when something traumatic just happened to them, especially if they were in danger of getting into serious trouble?
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PillowRock — 13 years ago(November 26, 2012 10:07 AM)
but nothing so big has happened to the Jets to necessitate the anger and sarcasm in that song.
I disagree. Their entire lives have happened, and the anger and cynicism in the song is entirely appropriate for what the song is telling us about the entire backstory that those characters have lived through.
In fact,
that
is what I see as being the function of the "Krupke" song in the movie: It reveals character. It tells us the characters' backstories (both in terms of what it says about their homelives and what is implied about how much time they've all spent "in the system") and explains their motivations to a large degree.
In that regard, "Krupke" does for the Jets what "America" does for the Sharks (in the movie version, with the guys included). The anger and cynicism of the Jets is justified by their life experiences (as laid out in "Krupke") just as the Sharks' anger and cynicism is justified by their life experiences (as laid out in "America"). I think that placing that parallel character development for both gangs between the dance and the war council works quite well. With the songs, both sides having a complete unwillingness to back down regardless of consequences becomes an understandable outgrowth of character, instead of an arbitrary requirement of the plot. -
StrongRex — 13 years ago(November 26, 2012 11:12 PM)
Their entire lives have happened, and the anger and cynicism in the song is entirely appropriate for what the song is telling us about the entire backstory that those characters have lived through.
Only one problem: there is no anger or cynicism in the song. It's jaunty, comical, and happy-go-lucky. Therefore, it doesn't fit after the rumble. -
PillowRock — 13 years ago(November 27, 2012 08:53 AM)
Their entire lives have happened, and the anger and cynicism in the song is entirely appropriate for what the song is telling us about the entire backstory that those characters have lived through.
Only one problem: there is no anger or cynicism in the song. It's jaunty, comical, and happy-go-lucky. Therefore, it doesn't fit after the rumble.
First:
I apologize in advance, but I have to ask:
Did you read my entire post? Or did you see a couple of keywords that you didn't like in the second sentence and stop there?
The reason that I ask is because my previous post was arguing in favor of the movie's placement of the songs.
Second:
The entire song is nothing but an extended heaping of ridicule on every piece of the legal and and social services machinery for their uselessness and cluelessness, both individually and collectively as a contradictory bureaucratic mess where everybody just wants to clear the file from their desk and pass the problem to someone else. And you claim that there is
no
cynicism in there?
I agree with you on the macro point that the movie's song placement is much better. However, the claim that there is no cynicism in "Officer Krupke" strikes me as the single least supportable statement made in this thread. And considering what I think of the other poster's contention that "Krupke" should have been cut, that's saying something.
Third:
Happy-go-lucky? I wouldn't go that far. I think that the only and last time when the Jets' overall attitude approaches happy-go-lucky is in the early part of the prologue when the Sharks hadn't yet started to come together to oppose them. However, even then they seemed just a little too paranoid and jealous about guarding their turf for the full meaning of that phrase to apply completely.
Jaunty? I'm not certain that's the adjective that I would choose; although I know what you mean and I'm not sure what I would replace it with. They're in the mode of posturing in front of their friends to demonstrate how cool they are, how unconcerned in the face of cops and courts. They're consciously putting on an upbeat front that most of them wouldn't have if they were alone (and that the majority of them were not demonstrating before Riff showed up and talked them into it). That doesn't necessarily mean that their underlying feelings couldn't include any anger. (Actually, for a couple of the Jets I'm not sure that anger is
ever
all that far below the surface.)
Comical? Of course the delivery is comical. They're making fun of the objects of their scorn. Make no mistake, though; despite the delivery being in the form a joke, the idea being expressed is still "scorn". I suppose you could make an argument for the distinction between "scorn" and "anger". However, given that the song starts out of dialog complaining about being rousted just for being there when they weren't doing anything, and ends with the collective exclamation of the (none too subtle) euphemism "Krup you!" I think that there's an element of anger mixed in there as well.
And, yes, I agree that jokes would not be the way that they would express those things immediately after seeing Riff (and then Bernardo) stabbed to death. -
StrongRex — 13 years ago(November 29, 2012 08:48 PM)
Oh okay, I see what you're saying. I think I just misunderstood your post.
I said happy-go-lucky because when you watch the number, they're laughing and having a good time, even with their cynicism. And yeah, maybe I misunderstood that word as well. I only said it wasn't an angry song like so many people claim it to be; it's really only the last few lines that reveal their actual anger.
And the fact that it's comical alone is enough to disqualify its place post-rumble. We are not supposed to laugh after Riff and Bernardo were murdered; we're just not. It's at that point where there is nothing but seriousness and there's not supposed to be any more "fun" to be had. I know you recognize this, but there are just so many who don't.
And one point I made that no one else seems to try to refute is the fact of Action being completely out of character. -
friendoffilm — 11 years ago(April 16, 2014 05:11 AM)
in any case, I don't think that
"Officer Krupke"
should've been cut, at all, because that scene, too, is a very integral part of the story.
I
do
agree with the decision to switch the order of
Officer Krupke
and the
Cool
scenes around when the film version of
West Side Story
was made, however. -
friendoffilm — 11 years ago(September 10, 2014 10:28 AM)
Hi, Dan_the_Man_88. You're welcome. Glad I was able to be of some help by giving you support and encouragement. You post about
West Side Story
, and other stuff so articulately that it's wonderful. Thanks very much again.